If Ellen is the 5th, then why didn't that cylon detector work?

[JGB]

Remember way back when Boomer didn't even know yet she was a cylon and
Baltar was building a cylon detector? He used it on her and it was
positive but, after talking it over with the phantom 6, he decided to
keep his mouth shut. Then Ellen shows up and they immediately make
her take the test because they suspect she is not really Ellen but a
cylon lookalike. She passed that test. What? The damned thing
doesn't work on the 5? Different than the other 7?

[DaffyDuck]

Post by JGB
What? The damned thing
doesn't work on the 5? Different than the other 7?

Yes.
--
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[n***@nospam.com]

Baltar's Cylon detector doesn't appear to be very reliable. That's
been fairly well established for a long time now.

And we do know there's something different about the Final Five. We
just don't know what it is.

Post by JGB
Remember way back when Boomer didn't even know yet she was a cylon and
Baltar was building a cylon detector? He used it on her and it was
positive but, after talking it over with the phantom 6, he decided to
keep his mouth shut. Then Ellen shows up and they immediately make
her take the test because they suspect she is not really Ellen but a
cylon lookalike. She passed that test. What? The damned thing
doesn't work on the 5? Different than the other 7?

[o***@earthlink.net]

Post by n***@nospam.com
Baltar's Cylon detector doesn't appear to be very reliable. That's
been fairly well established for a long time now.

Baltar futzed with his Cylon detector so that only he would know if
someone was a Cylon or not. It wasn't unreliable, it was deliberately
sabatogued.

Post by n***@nospam.com
And we do know there's something different about the Final Five. We
just don't know what it is.

We know that whatever "build" the Final Five are, they are
intrinsically different from the Seven. However Baltar's Cylon
detector worked it was only set up to detect the Seven. It's entirely
possible that had he known the Final Five were different from the
Seven he could have adjusted it to detect them as well.

--
The Stone Age did not end
because we ran out of stones.

[DaffyDuck]

Post by o***@earthlink.net
It wasn't unreliable, it was deliberately
sabatogued.

That's a very creative spelling of 'sabotaged'
--
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[Zombie Elvis]

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 21:16:59 -0800, DaffyDuck

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by o***@earthlink.net
It wasn't unreliable, it was deliberately
sabatogued.

That's a very creative spelling of 'sabotaged'

I just figured it was a Britishism like "colour" or "pussy."
--
"Please captain, not in front of the Klingons."
-- Spock

Roberto Castillo
***@ameritech.net
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/
http://zombie-gulch.myminicity.com/

[Ian B]

Post by Zombie Elvis
On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 21:16:59 -0800, DaffyDuck

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by o***@earthlink.net
It wasn't unreliable, it was deliberately
sabatogued.

That's a very creative spelling of 'sabotaged'

I just figured it was a Britishism like "colour" or "pussy."

Oh, how we laughed at ZZ Top singing "she's got hair, down to her fanny" on
Top Of The Pops.

Divided by a common language...

[Dropping The Helicopter]

Post by Zombie Elvis
On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 21:16:59 -0800, DaffyDuck

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by o***@earthlink.net
It wasn't unreliable, it was deliberately
sabatogued.

That's a very creative spelling of 'sabotaged'

I just figured it was a Britishism like "colour" or "pussy."

Close: "Sabatogued" is when something is sabotaged by Kylie Minogue.

[Brad Templeton]

Post by JGB
Remember way back when Boomer didn't even know yet she was a cylon and
Baltar was building a cylon detector? He used it on her and it was
positive but, after talking it over with the phantom 6, he decided to
keep his mouth shut. Then Ellen shows up and they immediately make
her take the test because they suspect she is not really Ellen but a
cylon lookalike. She passed that test. What? The damned thing
doesn't work on the 5? Different than the other 7?

Hugely different. Thousands of years different. They age, can have
babies with the 7, and many other differences. If the 5 are the same
class of technology as the 13th colony people, perhaps the Cylon's own
Cylon detector can spot them, but who knows about Baltar's. Anyway
Baltar said he would never tell what the result was.

[Zombie Elvis]

Post by JGB
Remember way back when Boomer didn't even know yet she was a cylon and
Baltar was building a cylon detector? He used it on her and it was
positive but, after talking it over with the phantom 6, he decided to
keep his mouth shut. Then Ellen shows up and they immediately make
her take the test because they suspect she is not really Ellen but a
cylon lookalike. She passed that test. What? The damned thing
doesn't work on the 5? Different than the other 7?

Watch the scene again. Baltar started deliberately passing everybody
-- including Ellen -- after Boomer tested positive.
--
"Please captain, not in front of the Klingons."
-- Spock

Roberto Castillo
***@ameritech.net
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/
http://zombie-gulch.myminicity.com/

[DaffyDuck]

On 2009-01-28 21:10:05 -0800, Zombie Elvis

Post by Zombie Elvis
Watch the scene again.

'watching' and 'remembering' appear to be in very short supply in this ng.
--
Feed your Killfile:
Terry Austin (<***@myway.com>, <***@gmail.com>, et al);
***@gmail.com; catpandaddy <***@cat.pan.net>; Anybody:
<***@anywhere-anytime.com>; Dropping The Helicopter
<***@dagsjhdgja.org.com>; Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy;
The-Captain <Capt-***@hotmail.com>; Tim McGaughy <***@toast.net>;
atlas bugged <***@gmail.com>; Atlas Bugged
<***@atlasbugged.com>; Your Name <***@isp.com>; Slayah
<***@hellmouth.com>; Karl <***@yahoo.com>; Ron
<***@msn.com>; Brad Templeton <***@templetons.com>

[p***@aol.com]

Post by JGB
Remember way back when Boomer didn't even know yet she was a cylon and
Baltar was building a cylon detector?  He used it on her and it was
positive but, after talking it over with the phantom 6, he decided to
keep his mouth shut.  Then Ellen shows up and they immediately make
her take the test because they suspect she is not really Ellen but a
cylon lookalike.  She passed that test.

No, we don't know that. Six asked what Baltar really found, and he
said he'd never tell - at the time rather implying she was a Cylon. He
decided to pass everyone. How he'll react to seeing Ellen back might
give us a clue as to what he really found.

The really interesting question is: why didn't the Cylon detector pick
up Tigh or Tyrol? Baltar was testing people for several months, and
since he had instructions to do people in sensitive positions first,
there's no way these two should have avoided being tested. But Baltar
has never shown any indication that he believed either character was a
Cylon. In this case the explanation lies with sloppy writing - despite
occasional references to lots of people having been tested, the show's
tended to assume that if major characters aren't tested onscreen, they
hadn't been tested at all. Plus it wasn't decided that either
character was a Cylon until after the Cylon detector arc was dead and
buried.

Phil

[Brad Templeton]

Post by p***@aol.com

Post by JGB
Remember way back when Boomer didn't even know yet she was a cylon and
Baltar was building a cylon detector?  He used it on her and it was
positive but, after talking it over with the phantom 6, he decided to
keep his mouth shut.  Then Ellen shows up and they immediately make
her take the test because they suspect she is not really Ellen but a
cylon lookalike.  She passed that test.

No, we don't know that. Six asked what Baltar really found, and he
said he'd never tell - at the time rather implying she was a Cylon. He
decided to pass everyone. How he'll react to seeing Ellen back might
give us a clue as to what he really found.
The really interesting question is: why didn't the Cylon detector pick
up Tigh or Tyrol? Baltar was testing people for several months, and
since he had instructions to do people in sensitive positions first,
there's no way these two should have avoided being tested. But Baltar
has never shown any indication that he believed either character was a
Cylon. In this case the explanation lies with sloppy writing - despite
occasional references to lots of people having been tested, the show's

Well, one simple explanation is that Tigh and Tyrol were not chosen
to be Cylons until mid season 3.

But it seems likely that F5 did not show up in his detector would be
how I would retcon it. After all, how could inner-Six not be able
to know what the detector said on Ellen?

Now realize they _were_ tapping Ellen to be a Cylon back in the
miniseries, but they had no concept of the final 5 back then.

We'll soon see if they want to explain her mysterious arrival on
the fleet as her being killed in the bombing and then waking up
in a new copy on the fleet -- that is the story she told, after
all, no knowledge of how she got there, just woke up there. Nobody
else recalls carrying her unconscious body there etc.

Sure sounds like a download and insert to the fleet (arranged by
the one they worship, I have to assume.) They may clear this up
or leave it as is.

[Ian B]

In article

Post by p***@aol.com

Post by JGB
Remember way back when Boomer didn't even know yet she was a cylon
and Baltar was building a cylon detector? He used it on her and it
was positive but, after talking it over with the phantom 6, he
decided to keep his mouth shut. Then Ellen shows up and they
immediately make her take the test because they suspect she is not
really Ellen but a cylon lookalike. She passed that test.

No, we don't know that. Six asked what Baltar really found, and he
said he'd never tell - at the time rather implying she was a Cylon.
He decided to pass everyone. How he'll react to seeing Ellen back
might give us a clue as to what he really found.
The really interesting question is: why didn't the Cylon detector
pick up Tigh or Tyrol? Baltar was testing people for several months,
and since he had instructions to do people in sensitive positions
first, there's no way these two should have avoided being tested.
But Baltar has never shown any indication that he believed either
character was a Cylon. In this case the explanation lies with sloppy
writing - despite occasional references to lots of people having
been tested, the show's

Well, one simple explanation is that Tigh and Tyrol were not chosen
to be Cylons until mid season 3.
But it seems likely that F5 did not show up in his detector would be
how I would retcon it. After all, how could inner-Six not be able
to know what the detector said on Ellen?
Now realize they _were_ tapping Ellen to be a Cylon back in the
miniseries, but they had no concept of the final 5 back then.
We'll soon see if they want to explain her mysterious arrival on
the fleet as her being killed in the bombing and then waking up
in a new copy on the fleet -- that is the story she told, after
all, no knowledge of how she got there, just woke up there. Nobody
else recalls carrying her unconscious body there etc.
Sure sounds like a download and insert to the fleet (arranged by
the one they worship, I have to assume.) They may clear this up
or leave it as is.

How did she get into the Fleet? There are no resurrection facilities on any
of the ships. Neither is there any Star Trek transporter technology, or
cloaking devices to allow a transport to smuggle her in. Neither is there
any indication so far that the Five can download- though there may be in the
future- though we are left to wonder if so why the other Cylons on "Earth"
didn't do so after being killed in the holocaust. If the answer to that is-
"their resurrection facilities were nuked also"- then we are back at the
start of the problem of them needing a resurrection facility. We're also
stuck with the problem of why Cylons which age and die would download into
new versions of their aged bodies.

[As an aside, I've been idly toying with that question for a story I'll
never get around to doing, a vaguely Utopian tract in which a person
cryonically frozen in the 21st century is resurrected several centuries
hence. Since their old body was ruined in the cryonic freezing process, they
have the surprise of having died in their 30s but waking up in a freshly
grown 18 year old body with numerous improvements based on the medical
technology of the future, which would seem to me to be what one would do if
the technology were available.]

It seems clear that the only reason there are only Seven "Type I" cylons is
that they're incapable of breeding. Once they can breed, the offspring will
be hybrids of the parental DNA, just as normal humans are. They will thus
differ from the seven models. That raises a question of how any resurrection
hub would work for descendent Type I Cylons. They couldn't just have stacks
of spare 1s, 5s, 6s and 8s because they won't be 1s, 5s, 6s or 8s.

I don't think the Type II Cylons can resurrect, and I don't think Ellen has
resurrected. The only way around that, if it's the case, for the writers, if
they intend to bring her back fully (rather than as some kind of vision
thing), is for her not to have died on New Caprica. She may have merely
shown the appearance of death for a while. I don't think we were ever told
what happened to the body, were we? It may be that Tigh, Tyrol and Anders,
all being Type IIs, disposed of it in such a way that it wasn't destroyed,
guided by their Cylon subconscious...


Ian

[Brad Templeton]

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
Sure sounds like a download and insert to the fleet (arranged by
the one they worship, I have to assume.) They may clear this up
or leave it as is.

How did she get into the Fleet? There are no resurrection facilities on any
of the ships. Neither is there any Star Trek transporter technology, or

WE don't know. We just know that she "woke up on a ship" and nobody
knows how and that sure smells funny when you know she's a final 5
Cylon.

The F5 have much more advanced technology than anybody else in the
show, and are much older than anybody else yet seen, so the writers are
free to give them (or their master) just about any reasonable tech they
want to.

How did Shelley Godfrey leave the fleet?

Post by Ian B
cloaking devices to allow a transport to smuggle her in. Neither is there
any indication so far that the Five can download- though there may be in the
future- though we are left to wonder if so why the other Cylons on "Earth"
didn't do so after being killed in the holocaust. If the answer to that is-
"their resurrection facilities were nuked also"- then we are back at the
start of the problem of them needing a resurrection facility. We're also
stuck with the problem of why Cylons which age and die would download into
new versions of their aged bodies.

We don't know anything about the Final 5's download facility except:
a) Like the s7, it retains memories even to death by nuclear bomb
b) They get bodies that are far more realisticly human, with aging,
breeding, etc.
c) It's independent of the S7's facilities (and thousands of years
older)
d) There are suggestions it is sometimes used to put you into a
fetus or baby, though we don't know much about this.

But we know it exists.

Post by Ian B
[As an aside, I've been idly toying with that question for a story I'll
never get around to doing, a vaguely Utopian tract in which a person
cryonically frozen in the 21st century is resurrected several centuries
hence. Since their old body was ruined in the cryonic freezing process, they
have the surprise of having died in their 30s but waking up in a freshly
grown 18 year old body with numerous improvements based on the medical
technology of the future, which would seem to me to be what one would do if
the technology were available.]

This would not surprise anybody in modern Cryonics. The majority of
people signed up will preserve only their head, figuring that they don't
want their old body and that growing a new clone body is easier than
repairing a frozen brain. So your plot where the person is surprised
would not make sense.

Post by Ian B
I don't think the Type II Cylons can resurrect, and I don't think Ellen has
resurrected. The only way around that, if it's the case, for the writers, if

I see nothing to demonstrate that. We know they come back, and we know
that they know they come back, or at least Ellen did. We have yet seen
nothing about how they come back. There's a lot to suggest that what
they do depends on the situation, and they live differently when the
cycle is about to burst again.

One thing though makes it clear that they can also ressurect as adults,
namely that I don't think they will have Ellen come back on the show
as a fetus. Kate Vernon says she is in the upcoming episodes, reunited
with Saul. I know there are fans of a "she never died" theory but that
requires other strange things. Including how she got off New Caprica
when the 7 Cylons don't know who she is.

[Ian B]

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
Sure sounds like a download and insert to the fleet (arranged by
the one they worship, I have to assume.) They may clear this up
or leave it as is.

How did she get into the Fleet? There are no resurrection facilities
on any of the ships. Neither is there any Star Trek transporter
technology, or

WE don't know. We just know that she "woke up on a ship" and nobody
knows how and that sure smells funny when you know she's a final 5
Cylon.

Well, she may simply have been incognito. Nobody was looking for her. Would
have been easy to keep her head down. May need no more explanation than
that, even if we get one.

Post by Brad Templeton
The F5 have much more advanced technology than anybody else

They do? We don't really know anything about them. We don't know how the
visions work, or the Temple Of Five, or anything else. We don't know what if
anything our actual living Five have access to.

Post by Brad Templeton
in the
show, and are much older than anybody else yet seen, so the writers
are free to give them (or their master) just about any reasonable
tech they want to.

Within reason. The show has been very low key about magic technologies so
far (the FTL, basically) so I'd be surprised if they go all technobabble on
us at the end.

Post by Brad Templeton
How did Shelley Godfrey leave the fleet?

Out an airlock? Threw herself in a trash compactor?

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B
cloaking devices to allow a transport to smuggle her in. Neither is
there any indication so far that the Five can download- though there
may be in the future- though we are left to wonder if so why the
other Cylons on "Earth" didn't do so after being killed in the
holocaust. If the answer to that is- "their resurrection facilities
were nuked also"- then we are back at the start of the problem of
them needing a resurrection facility. We're also stuck with the
problem of why Cylons which age and die would download into new
versions of their aged bodies.

We don't *actually* know that they have one. How many times do I have to
remind you of this?

Post by Brad Templeton
a) Like the s7, it retains memories even to death by nuclear bomb
b) They get bodies that are far more realisticly human, with aging,
breeding, etc.
c) It's independent of the S7's facilities (and thousands of years
older)
d) There are suggestions it is sometimes used to put you into a
fetus or baby, though we don't know much about this.
But we know it exists.

We do? So far as we know, Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, Tori and Ellen lived normal
lives, born of woman. We have no idea how they are able to reappear over and
over again. If they have a ressurrection facility we've neither seen it nor
any hint of it, and it would have had to track them from Caprica to Earth
without being seen. Likely?

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B
[As an aside, I've been idly toying with that question for a story
I'll never get around to doing, a vaguely Utopian tract in which a
person cryonically frozen in the 21st century is resurrected several
centuries hence. Since their old body was ruined in the cryonic
freezing process, they have the surprise of having died in their 30s
but waking up in a freshly grown 18 year old body with numerous
improvements based on the medical technology of the future, which
would seem to me to be what one would do if the technology were
available.]

This would not surprise anybody in modern Cryonics. The majority of
people signed up will preserve only their head, figuring that they
don't want their old body and that growing a new clone body is easier
than repairing a frozen brain. So your plot where the person is
surprised would not make sense.

Well, I'll make sure and run all my half-assed ideas past you in future, and
be sure to post detailed plot synopses. For what it's worth, she was frozen
by her brokenhearted husband after dying of leukemia and had no idea
beforehand and no interest in cryonics. Which is why waking up in the future
comes as something of a surprise.

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B
I don't think the Type II Cylons can resurrect, and I don't think
Ellen has resurrected. The only way around that, if it's the case,
for the writers, if

I see nothing to demonstrate that. We know they come back, and we
know that they know they come back, or at least Ellen did.

I see nothing to demonstrate your resurrection hub either.

Post by Brad Templeton
We have
yet seen nothing about how they come back. There's a lot to suggest
that what they do depends on the situation, and they live differently
when the cycle is about to burst again.
One thing though makes it clear that they can also ressurect as
adults, namely that I don't think they will have Ellen come back on
the show
as a fetus. Kate Vernon says she is in the upcoming episodes,
reunited with Saul. I know there are fans of a "she never died"
theory but that requires other strange things. Including how she got
off New Caprica when the 7 Cylons don't know who she is.

Unless Cavil did. Or unless she awoke and went into hiding. Or something
else I haven't thought of.


Ian

[SJohnson]

Post by Ian B
We don't *actually* know that they have one. How many times do I have to
remind you of this?

Post by Brad Templeton
a) Like the s7, it retains memories even to death by nuclear bomb
b) They get bodies that are far more realisticly human, with aging,
breeding, etc.
c) It's independent of the S7's facilities (and thousands of years
older)
d) There are suggestions it is sometimes used to put you into a
fetus or baby, though we don't know much about this.
But we know it exists.

We do? So far as we know, Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, Tori and Ellen lived normal
lives, born of woman. We have no idea how they are able to reappear over and
over again. If they have a ressurrection facility we've neither seen it nor
any hint of it, and it would have had to track them from Caprica to Earth
without being seen. Likely?

This happens to be my current take on that as well... until RDM shows
us otherwise. To be honest, I've been getting this sinking feeling
that the F5 and the "13th Colony" are both testing as 'cylon' for a
reason...

[insert <sting music> HERE]

<<snippety do-dah>>

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B
I don't think the Type II Cylons can resurrect, and I don't think
Ellen has resurrected. The only way around that, if it's the case,
for the writers, if

I see nothing to demonstrate that. We know they come back, and we
know that they know they come back, or at least Ellen did.

I see nothing to demonstrate your resurrection hub either.

Both points in the above have merit, IMO. While we do know that the F5
"come back", we've only been shown their awareness to former memories
only after certain 'triggers' to such while they were on Earth.

Even the triggers to switch the F5's "ON" to their cylon heritage at
the nebula didn't flush them with old memories the way it does with
the C7 models, who 're automatically imbued with it upon resurrection.
Even the Boomer 8 got to some- if not ALL- of the entire lines'
memories after she was 'switched on' to shoot Adama.

Again, until RDM clears this up, I'm thinking that the F5s do NOT
resurrect as the C7s do-- er, *did*..

..But, they do come back, don't they..?

[re-insert <sting music> HERE]

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
We have
yet seen nothing about how they come back. There's a lot to suggest
that what they do depends on the situation, and they live differently
when the cycle is about to burst again.
One thing though makes it clear that they can also ressurect as
adults, namely that I don't think they will have Ellen come back on
the show
as a fetus. Kate Vernon says she is in the upcoming episodes,
reunited with Saul. I know there are fans of a "she never died"
theory but that requires other strange things. Including how she got
off New Caprica when the 7 Cylons don't know who she is.

Unless Cavil did. Or unless she awoke and went into hiding. Or something
else I haven't thought of.

Maybe a heavily-shielded, miles-underground facility on Earth that the
colonials haven't discovered yet..? Colonial tech is not THAT
awe-inspiring enough to show us that they would 've discovered such a
facility so soon, if such a thing like that was built correctly (read:
hard to detect).

I know... too Trek-ish, right?

SJohnson
Who Says I Can't Re-imagine The Sharons As Redshirts..??

[Brad Templeton]

Post by SJohnson
Again, until RDM clears this up, I'm thinking that the F5s do NOT
resurrect as the C7s do-- er, *did*..
..But, they do come back, don't they..?

Oh, I certainly agree that they have a mode of operation that
is not the same as the S7. They are not at all like the S7
so that makes sense. However, we do know the memories are
there, just blocked until something triggers them. I have my
theories as to why.

While Ellen's mysterious arrival on the fleet and her reappearance
after her poisoning (coming next week I presume) _could_ be explained
in other ways, to me the most likely approach is that her facility
can do both -- rebirth younger, with memories blocked, and full
rebirth. After all, their tech is much more mature than the S7s,
and the S7 made Boomer somehow. Indeed, I think the S7's tech
comes from the F5 but we'll see that sooner or later.

[SJohnson]

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by SJohnson
Again, until RDM clears this up, I'm thinking that the F5s do NOT
resurrect as the C7s do-- er, *did*..
..But, they do come back, don't they..?

Oh, I certainly agree that they have a mode of operation that
is not the same as the S7. They are not at all like the S7
so that makes sense. However, we do know the memories are
there, just blocked until something triggers them. I have my
theories as to why.

Exactly. Something "triggers" a buried individual memory (F5s), as
opposed to simply having access to memories 'given' to a core, and
then the core simply downloads same to the next resurrected model in
the line (C7s).

Remember, what D'anna/the Threes did was 'bypass' an otherwise normal
memory download by doing something that was counter to their
programming (I believe "taboo" was term used): Committing the act of
suicide.

This seems to have a very, very stressful effect on the downloading
protocols to a chosen model-- and add to that the characteristics of
the very Three-type models being downloaded to... and BINGO! You
have a perfect storm of Cylon trouble, as it seems that D'anna was
able to find out for herself why such an act of counter-behavior to
programming was forbidden in the first place: I surmise it to be a
flaw in those same downloading protocols which allowed restricted data
to pass into her along with her 'normal' memories. (Even the best
designed systems has had some type of hidden flaws found within them,
and I expect no less from such designers in a RDM -type world.)

So, the more the Threes kept off-ing themselves, the more restricted
data they were able to glean from the core via the ship's Hybrid-- who
handled Resurrection data-via-hub the same way that they handled
environmental controls and star jumps; and because of the
aforementioned flaw, the Hybrid probably could not effectively screen
out all of the restricted data being sent towards a death-by-suicide
resurrected model at that time. Cavil was very adamant about this type
of behavior being stopped at all costs-- even to the point of him
having to box the entire Three line because of this (and all the
associated troubles that sprang from it.)

Post by Brad Templeton
While Ellen's mysterious arrival on the fleet and her reappearance
after her poisoning (coming next week I presume) _could_ be explained
in other ways, to me the most likely approach is that her facility
can do both -- rebirth younger, with memories blocked, and full
rebirth. After all, their tech is much more mature than the S7s,
and the S7 made Boomer somehow. Indeed, I think the S7's tech
comes from the F5 but we'll see that sooner or later.

Man, like minds *do* think alike, don't they? ;-)

I believe the C7s' tech comes from the F5s as well, albeit in a
bastardized, uber alterior-motive type of designing. Which explains
why, until D'anna broke protocol, they were forbidden to request,
re-aquire, and reveal anything concerning their technological
forebears to others of the series.

SJohnson

[Brad Templeton]

Post by SJohnson

Post by Brad Templeton
is not the same as the S7. They are not at all like the S7
so that makes sense. However, we do know the memories are
there, just blocked until something triggers them. I have my
theories as to why.

Exactly. Something "triggers" a buried individual memory (F5s), as
opposed to simply having access to memories 'given' to a core, and
then the core simply downloads same to the next resurrected model in
the line (C7s).
Remember, what D'anna/the Threes did was 'bypass' an otherwise normal
memory download by doing something that was counter to their
programming (I believe "taboo" was term used): Committing the act of
suicide.

Sure, but she did this because she thought she had glimpsed things
in the space between life and death before.

Post by SJohnson
resurrected model at that time. Cavil was very adamant about this type
of behavior being stopped at all costs-- even to the point of him
having to box the entire Three line because of this (and all the
associated troubles that sprang from it.)

It was the quest for the five, at risk to other interests of the
Cylon race, that got her boxed. Not the suicides.

[SJohnson]

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by SJohnson

Post by Brad Templeton
is not the same as the S7. They are not at all like the S7
so that makes sense. However, we do know the memories are
there, just blocked until something triggers them. I have my
theories as to why.

Exactly. Something "triggers" a buried individual memory (F5s), as
opposed to simply having access to memories 'given' to a core, and
then the core simply downloads same to the next resurrected model in
the line (C7s).
Remember, what D'anna/the Threes did was 'bypass' an otherwise normal
memory download by doing something that was counter to their
programming (I believe "taboo" was term used): Committing the act of
suicide.

Sure, but she did this because she thought she had glimpsed things
in the space between life and death before.

Well, D'anna and Baltar (and, ultimately, *us*) wanted her to continue
down this path of discovery; but she was NOT supposed to be
"glimpsing" anything at all. And in order for her to "glimpse things",
she had to commit (in the Cylon world) a very serious act counter to
their programming.. Multiple times, in fact.

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by SJohnson
resurrected model at that time. Cavil was very adamant about this type
of behavior being stopped at all costs-- even to the point of him
having to box the entire Three line because of this (and all the
associated troubles that sprang from it.)

It was the quest for the five, at risk to other interests of the
Cylon race, that got her boxed. Not the suicides.

Methinks both. And *all*. D'anna just did too many things prior to her
being boxed that eventually culminated with this move.

Seeking the identities of the F5s (taboo) was causing her to commit
suicide (taboo)-- sometimes by ordering or reprogramming a Centurion
to violate his own protocols in killing another Cylon (taboo); still
allowing a ship to land on the algae planet in defiance of a
collective decision of the C7s (taboo), and on and on and on...

"And all the associated troubles that sprang from it." Never said
*just* the suicides...

SJohnson

[Joseph D. Korman]

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by SJohnson
Again, until RDM clears this up, I'm thinking that the F5s do NOT
resurrect as the C7s do-- er, *did*..
..But, they do come back, don't they..?

Oh, I certainly agree that they have a mode of operation that
is not the same as the S7. They are not at all like the S7
so that makes sense. However, we do know the memories are
there, just blocked until something triggers them. I have my
theories as to why.
While Ellen's mysterious arrival on the fleet and her reappearance
after her poisoning (coming next week I presume) _could_ be explained
in other ways, to me the most likely approach is that her facility
can do both -- rebirth younger, with memories blocked, and full
rebirth. After all, their tech is much more mature than the S7s,
and the S7 made Boomer somehow. Indeed, I think the S7's tech
comes from the F5 but we'll see that sooner or later.

Does anyone else thing that Moore wrote himself into a corner by saying
there are 12 Cylon skinjobs and there will be no other aliens in the
show? Now he's trying to wiggle out of those conflicting statements
with double talk. The final five are Cylons, but different.
--
-------------------------------------------------
| Joseph D. Korman |
| mailto:***@thejoekorner.com |
| Visit The JoeKorNer at |
| http://www.thejoekorner.com |
|-------------------------------------------------|
| The light at the end of the tunnel ... |
| may be a train going the other way! |
| Brooklyn Tech Grads build things that work!('66)|
|-------------------------------------------------|
| All outgoing E-mail is scanned by NAV |
-------------------------------------------------

[Brad Templeton]

Post by Joseph D. Korman

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by SJohnson
Again, until RDM clears this up, I'm thinking that the F5s do NOT
resurrect as the C7s do-- er, *did*..
..But, they do come back, don't they..?

Oh, I certainly agree that they have a mode of operation that
is not the same as the S7. They are not at all like the S7
so that makes sense. However, we do know the memories are
there, just blocked until something triggers them. I have my
theories as to why.
While Ellen's mysterious arrival on the fleet and her reappearance
after her poisoning (coming next week I presume) _could_ be explained
in other ways, to me the most likely approach is that her facility
can do both -- rebirth younger, with memories blocked, and full
rebirth. After all, their tech is much more mature than the S7s,
and the S7 made Boomer somehow. Indeed, I think the S7's tech
comes from the F5 but we'll see that sooner or later.

Does anyone else thing that Moore wrote himself into a corner by saying
there are 12 Cylon skinjobs and there will be no other aliens in the
show? Now he's trying to wiggle out of those conflicting statements
with double talk. The final five are Cylons, but different.

Remember that for the first 2 years of the show, "Cylon" referred
to the robots made 50 years ago on Caprica, and the things they
evolved into.

The Final Five are certainly not "Cylons" by the definition the
show and the characters used back then.

Now it turns out the Cylons were created by man, they did rebel,
they did evolve, and some are programmed to think they are human.

But thousands of years ago.

Some folks here seem to think "A Cylon is a Cylon" which is a fine
statement, but the error is interpreting it to mean, "Something we
learned about the 7 necessarily applies to the 5, or the 13th
tribe etc."

I think it's more like saying, "An Earthling is an Earthling" and
concluding that because sparrows have wings, so do dogs and so do
Archea. They are related (quite closely) but the statement is
largely meaningless.

In this case it's worse. I think they probably are all related but
they might not be. We have yet to see. The Guardians (original
Graystone robots) might well be quite unrelated to the 13th colony
centurion. Athena says the First Hybrid is unrelated to herself,
but she may or may not be mistaken.

[Ian B]

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Joseph D. Korman

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by SJohnson
Again, until RDM clears this up, I'm thinking that the F5s do NOT
resurrect as the C7s do-- er, *did*..
..But, they do come back, don't they..?

Oh, I certainly agree that they have a mode of operation that
is not the same as the S7. They are not at all like the S7
so that makes sense. However, we do know the memories are
there, just blocked until something triggers them. I have my
theories as to why.
While Ellen's mysterious arrival on the fleet and her reappearance
after her poisoning (coming next week I presume) _could_ be
explained in other ways, to me the most likely approach is that her
facility can do both -- rebirth younger, with memories blocked, and
full rebirth. After all, their tech is much more mature than the
S7s, and the S7 made Boomer somehow. Indeed, I think the S7's tech
comes from the F5 but we'll see that sooner or later.

Does anyone else thing that Moore wrote himself into a corner by
saying there are 12 Cylon skinjobs and there will be no other aliens
in the show? Now he's trying to wiggle out of those conflicting
statements with double talk. The final five are Cylons, but
different.

Remember that for the first 2 years of the show, "Cylon" referred
to the robots made 50 years ago on Caprica, and the things they
evolved into.
The Final Five are certainly not "Cylons" by the definition the
show and the characters used back then.
Now it turns out the Cylons were created by man, they did rebel,
they did evolve, and some are programmed to think they are human.
But thousands of years ago.
Some folks here seem to think "A Cylon is a Cylon" which is a fine
statement, but the error is interpreting it to mean, "Something we
learned about the 7 necessarily applies to the 5, or the 13th
tribe etc."

No, you're deliberately inverting what people are saying here, or at least
what I'm saying and I think Phil is saying. We're trying to make you see
Cylon in exclusive terms- that whether humans are historical artificial or
not, they are *not* cylons. We're not extrapolating from one type of cylon
to all cylons, or saying that what applies to the 7 applies to the 5. Quite
the reverse. You've been trying to apply Cylon attributes to humans because
you beleive they're artificial and thus- by your own definition- Cylon and
can thus do Cylon things (like having Starbuck download). Nobody else is
saying that. We're just saying "cylon" denotes some commonality which Baltar
(and the Seven) can detect with their detectors.

Post by Brad Templeton
I think it's more like saying, "An Earthling is an Earthling" and
concluding that because sparrows have wings, so do dogs and so do
Archea. They are related (quite closely) but the statement is
largely meaningless.
In this case it's worse. I think they probably are all related but
they might not be. We have yet to see. The Guardians (original
Graystone robots) might well be quite unrelated to the 13th colony
centurion. Athena says the First Hybrid is unrelated to herself,
but she may or may not be mistaken.

Brad, there's been nothing in the series about "the Guardians" and
"Graystone robots". Where are you getting this stuff from?


Ian

[Brad Templeton]

Post by Ian B
No, you're deliberately inverting what people are saying here, or at least
what I'm saying and I think Phil is saying. We're trying to make you see
Cylon in exclusive terms- that whether humans are historical artificial or

I understand that. I just see that this is not how the colonial
characters use the term. They have had to redefine the term, and now
it is more a confusing term in their minds. The 7 are probably also
surprised, as as far as we know, they think they also sprang from
being "evolved" from caprican factory robots.

Post by Ian B
not, they are *not* cylons. We're not extrapolating from one type of cylon
to all cylons, or saying that what applies to the 7 applies to the 5. Quite
the reverse. You've been trying to apply Cylon attributes to humans because
you beleive they're artificial and thus- by your own definition- Cylon and
can thus do Cylon things (like having Starbuck download). Nobody else is
saying that. We're just saying "cylon" denotes some commonality which Baltar
(and the Seven) can detect with their detectors.

The reason I use it that way is that I think it _is_ clear what
human means to the colonials. Not a machine. Natural born, not
a "made thing." Not programmed. I think they use the term
Cylon (and toaster) to refer to those things.

So if they humans discover that they are "made things," as many
suspect they might, they will thing "we are Cylons" just as
Tyrol and Tigh thought that.

And that will be in the course of discovering that there were, at
least once, natural evolved humans, who made the first AIs, and
possibly even called them Cylons. (Though we would have to
explain why Graystone used the ancient name.)

Post by Ian B
Brad, there's been nothing in the series about "the Guardians" and
"Graystone robots". Where are you getting this stuff from?
Ian

Are you serious or sarcastic in asking these questions? The
Guardians were certainly in the series. You could quibble that
in the series the _names_ of the creators of the first robots
on Caprica (Graystone and Adama) is not revealed, but the fact that
the colonial history says that they were made ~50 years ago is
in the series, without the names.

My personal theory, by the way, is that the software Adama stole
to make the first Cylons might well have been planted there
by more ancient forces for him to steal, but that's just a
guess.

[Brad Templeton]

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
The F5 have much more advanced technology than anybody else

They do? We don't really know anything about them. We don't know how the
visions work, or the Temple Of Five, or anything else. We don't know what if
anything our actual living Five have access to.

Our living 5 have access to almost nothing, their memories are blocked.
But as they come back, they will have access to the tech. Now I can't
tell you how much tech belongs to the F5 and how much to their secret
partner (possibly Cylon god) but it's a lot of tech. It brought the
fleets together when a nova went off. It built a temple with some sort
of brain projector activated by a nova. It was involved in the
programming of the 7 Cylons. There are many suggestions (more than that
in spoilers for the upcoming "Final Five" comic book) that the 7 got
their technology (biology, ressurection hub) from the F5. They have
had all this tech for 4,000 years -- makes you think it should be
pretty advanced at this point.

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
How did Shelley Godfrey leave the fleet?

Out an airlock? Threw herself in a trash compactor?

We will apparently learn the answer in "The Plan."

Post by Ian B
We don't *actually* know that they have one. How many times do I have to
remind you of this?

Ellen said they have one, why do you think she's wrong?

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
a) Like the s7, it retains memories even to death by nuclear bomb
b) They get bodies that are far more realisticly human, with aging,
breeding, etc.
c) It's independent of the S7's facilities (and thousands of years
older)
d) There are suggestions it is sometimes used to put you into a
fetus or baby, though we don't know much about this.
But we know it exists.

We do? So far as we know, Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, Tori and Ellen lived normal
lives, born of woman. We have no idea how they are able to reappear over and
over again. If they have a ressurrection facility we've neither seen it nor
any hint of it, and it would have had to track them from Caprica to Earth
without being seen. Likely?

Almost certain. You are trying to say they don't have one? How does
Tyrol remember the moments before his body dies in a nuclear blast?

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
I see nothing to demonstrate that. We know they come back, and we
know that they know they come back, or at least Ellen did.

I see nothing to demonstrate your resurrection hub either.

What hub? What we see in the show is that the Five recover
their memories of moments before prior destruction of bodies
that look exactly the same. What else do you think this is?

Post by Ian B
Unless Cavil did. Or unless she awoke and went into hiding. Or something
else I haven't thought of.

Possible, but doesn't stop the fact that we've been shown they
have a download ability. But tell me how to account for Tigh's
and Tyrol's memories of their moments of death without one.

[Ian B]

Post by Brad Templeton

We don't *actually* know that they have one [resurrection tech]. How many
times do I
have to remind you of this?

Ellen said they have one, why do you think she's wrong?

Ur-Ellen said they would be "reborn", not resurrected. The only indications
we have so far is that they are born, age and die like humans. We are
certain that they age. Adama has known both Tigh and Ellen long enough to be
certain of that- indeed it was one of his arguments against Tigh's
confession of being a Cylon.

[Brad Templeton]

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton

We don't *actually* know that they have one [resurrection tech]. How many
times do I
have to remind you of this?

Ellen said they have one, why do you think she's wrong?

Ur-Ellen said they would be "reborn", not resurrected. The only indications
we have so far is that they are born, age and die like humans. We are
certain that they age. Adama has known both Tigh and Ellen long enough to be
certain of that- indeed it was one of his arguments against Tigh's
confession of being a Cylon.

I would consider being reborn, with your memories present but repressed,
to be a ressurection tech. Since the Final Five were involved in
creating the 7 Cylons, if their system can't also put their mind into
a more adult body, that's by choice, not by lack of knowledge of how
to do it.

[Ian B]

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton

We don't *actually* know that they have one [resurrection tech].
How many times do I
have to remind you of this?

Ellen said they have one, why do you think she's wrong?

Ur-Ellen said they would be "reborn", not resurrected. The only
indications we have so far is that they are born, age and die like
humans. We are certain that they age. Adama has known both Tigh and
Ellen long enough to be certain of that- indeed it was one of his
arguments against Tigh's confession of being a Cylon.

I would consider being reborn, with your memories present but
repressed, to be a ressurection tech. Since the Final Five were
involved in creating the 7 Cylons, if their system can't also put
their mind into
a more adult body, that's by choice, not by lack of knowledge of how
to do it.

Read the thread again please. We are discussing whether they, the FF, have
their own ressurection facilities. Unless they've been secretly using SS
ones (which would mean some collaboration from at least one SS model) they
don't appear to have any.

Ellen didn't say they have a resurrection facility. She said she and Saul
would be "reborn". How, we do not know.


Ian

[Brad Templeton]

Post by Ian B
Read the thread again please. We are discussing whether they, the FF, have
their own ressurection facilities. Unless they've been secretly using SS
ones (which would mean some collaboration from at least one SS model) they
don't appear to have any.
Ellen didn't say they have a resurrection facility. She said she and Saul
would be "reborn". How, we do not know.

It's just a word. We don't know what they meant by it. Or if it
is a reincarnation as a baby, if it always works that way. We really
can't tell from just that one line.

What we know is:

a) They do have a way to download their memories
b) They do have a way to make new bodies with those memories,
implanted but repressed, as babies
c) They or their ally played a role in creating the 7 Cylons, who
can put their downloads into adult bodies


It's not hard to figure out that they can combine all this.

[Ian B]

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B
Read the thread again please. We are discussing whether they, the
FF, have their own ressurection facilities. Unless they've been
secretly using SS ones (which would mean some collaboration from at
least one SS model) they don't appear to have any.
Ellen didn't say they have a resurrection facility. She said she and
Saul would be "reborn". How, we do not know.

It's just a word. We don't know what they meant by it. Or if it
is a reincarnation as a baby, if it always works that way. We really
can't tell from just that one line.
a) They do have a way to download their memories

We don't know that. The Seven download in some form of digital copying
operation- according to the show's science advisor, as a form of incremental
backup. (Which is why they can "download" even if unexpectedly blown to
atoms- they will resurrect with wherever the backup had backed up to). So
far as we know, the Five died 2000 years ago, and have been reborn in the
Colonies 2000 years later. We have no idea how they did this. It may be a
model of consciousness with continuity, not copying at all. It depends how
our writers envisage such things and where their limits are as far as
"unscientific" goes. A lot of science fiction, very unscientifically, treats
consciousness as an independent thing rather than merely as a phenomenon of
the workings of the brain. It's full of free-floating consciousnesses.

We can probably say though that if the "Earth" Cylons had a resurrection
ship, there'd be more than five survivors.

Post by Brad Templeton
b) They do have a way to make new bodies with those memories,
implanted but repressed, as babies

But this may be some form of reincarnation. "Reborn" implies that. I don't
think we're looking at "downloading" into blanks.

Post by Brad Templeton
c) They or their ally played a role in creating the 7 Cylons, who
can put their downloads into adult bodies
It's not hard to figure out that they can combine all this.

It depends what they're combining.


Ian

[Brad Templeton]

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
a) They do have a way to download their memories

We don't know that. The Seven download in some form of digital copying
operation- according to the show's science advisor, as a form of incremental
backup. (Which is why they can "download" even if unexpectedly blown to
atoms- they will resurrect with wherever the backup had backed up to). So

Right. And Tyrol demonstrates the same thing. He literally remembers
being vapourized by a nuclear flash which is a pretty mean feat, even
for an incremental download. But Six remembers the same thing.

Post by Ian B
far as we know, the Five died 2000 years ago, and have been reborn in the
Colonies 2000 years later. We have no idea how they did this. It may be a

Correct, because A Cylon is not a Cylon! :-)

We can only guess. We're pretty comfortable in saying the F5 and 7
are related (like Parent and Child, or like Uncle and child) so where
there is reason provided to expect commonality, we may consider it.
But we must not make too many assumptions.

Post by Ian B
But this may be some form of reincarnation. "Reborn" implies that. I don't
think we're looking at "downloading" into blanks.

Reborn is just a word they/the writers use. You read too much into it.

[Ian B]

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
a) They do have a way to download their memories

We don't know that. The Seven download in some form of digital
copying operation- according to the show's science advisor, as a
form of incremental backup. (Which is why they can "download" even
if unexpectedly blown to atoms- they will resurrect with wherever
the backup had backed up to). So

Right. And Tyrol demonstrates the same thing. He literally remembers
being vapourized by a nuclear flash which is a pretty mean feat, even
for an incremental download. But Six remembers the same thing.

Post by Ian B
far as we know, the Five died 2000 years ago, and have been reborn
in the Colonies 2000 years later. We have no idea how they did this.
It may be a

Correct, because A Cylon is not a Cylon! :-)

The first thing the Four realised when their switches flipped was... that
they are Cylons.

[Brad Templeton]

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
a) They do have a way to download their memories

We don't know that. The Seven download in some form of digital
copying operation- according to the show's science advisor, as a
form of incremental backup. (Which is why they can "download" even
if unexpectedly blown to atoms- they will resurrect with wherever
the backup had backed up to). So

Right. And Tyrol demonstrates the same thing. He literally remembers
being vapourized by a nuclear flash which is a pretty mean feat, even
for an incremental download. But Six remembers the same thing.

Post by Ian B
far as we know, the Five died 2000 years ago, and have been reborn
in the Colonies 2000 years later. We have no idea how they did this.
It may be a

Correct, because A Cylon is not a Cylon! :-)

The first thing the Four realised when their switches flipped was... that
they are Cylons.

Yes, but that does not tell us what the term means to them. In fact,
since Graystone coined, or thinks he coined the term Cylon, they
obviously don't think they are Graystone Cylon(R) brand robots.

We will probably learn, in Caprica, if Cylon is an old term that
somehow Graystone was influenced to use, or if it is a new term
and they are applying it backwards to mean any artificial being.

[Ian B]

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
a) They do have a way to download their memories

We don't know that. The Seven download in some form of digital
copying operation- according to the show's science advisor, as a
form of incremental backup. (Which is why they can "download" even
if unexpectedly blown to atoms- they will resurrect with wherever
the backup had backed up to). So

Right. And Tyrol demonstrates the same thing. He literally
remembers being vapourized by a nuclear flash which is a pretty
mean feat, even for an incremental download. But Six remembers the
same thing.

Post by Ian B
far as we know, the Five died 2000 years ago, and have been reborn
in the Colonies 2000 years later. We have no idea how they did
this. It may be a

Correct, because A Cylon is not a Cylon! :-)

The first thing the Four realised when their switches flipped was...
that they are Cylons.

Yes, but that does not tell us what the term means to them. In fact,
since Graystone coined, or thinks he coined the term Cylon, they
obviously don't think they are Graystone Cylon(R) brand robots.

Well, considering that Caprica hasn't aired yet, so we don't actually know
what the story is...

Apparently they *do* think they are Cylons in the same way as the other
Cylons think they're Cylons. The clue here is that they use the same word
for "Cylon" as other Cylons do. So the question is how Cylons came to be
reinvented on Caprica.

Post by Brad Templeton
We will probably learn, in Caprica, if Cylon is an old term that
somehow Graystone was influenced to use, or if it is a new term
and they are applying it backwards to mean any artificial being.

The Five and the Seven have the same nature. They are the same "species" or
genera anyway of biological robot thing. That is overwhemingly clear from
the way the term is used. There are 12 models of this biological robot. They
all know they have this commonality. It isn't a generic term for any old
robot.

So, the question to be addressed is the same question as one would have if
one were to be on an archaelogical dig of an ancient Roman city, and found a
box of VHS tapes. Not "some kind of generic video tapes", but specifically
VHS ones, with the same form factor and the logo on and everything.

The Four knew the instant they activated that they are Cylons, the same
"species" as the Seven. There has never been any doubt about that. What word
is used for that same species is actually irrelevant in this sense. Perhaps
the ancient Cylons spoke some different language and called themselves
Squatloos. It's the common nature that is relevant.


Ian

[Brad Templeton]

Post by Ian B
Apparently they *do* think they are Cylons in the same way as the other
Cylons think they're Cylons. The clue here is that they use the same word
for "Cylon" as other Cylons do. So the question is how Cylons came to be
reinvented on Caprica.

They don't. As Moore said at the time, when they were switched on
they knew _nothing_ other than that they were Cylons. They knew even
less than the other Cylons about the Final Five, in spite of the
other's compulsion not to think of them. They learned one thing,
as Tyrol said, "We're Cylons, and we have been from the start."


End of story until they got called to the Viper, and then when they
touched things on the 13th colonly.

Post by Ian B
The Five and the Seven have the same nature. They are the same "species" or
genera anyway of biological robot thing. That is overwhemingly clear from

You can keep saying this but tell me where in the show it demonstrates
this. More to the point. Tell us where in the show it contradicts
the writers who, I have noted several times now, have said the exact
opposite thing. "Fundamentally different type of Cylon."

You keep saying things but there is nothing in the show to back
them up. Believe me, I have looked to these things, so have lots
of other people. If you think they are there, you have to name
them.

[Ian B]

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B
Apparently they *do* think they are Cylons in the same way as the
other Cylons think they're Cylons. The clue here is that they use
the same word for "Cylon" as other Cylons do. So the question is how
Cylons came to be reinvented on Caprica.

They don't. As Moore said at the time, when they were switched on
they knew _nothing_ other than that they were Cylons. They knew even
less than the other Cylons about the Final Five, in spite of the
other's compulsion not to think of them. They learned one thing,
as Tyrol said, "We're Cylons, and we have been from the start."

Doesn't that line "we're Cylons..." give you some kind of clue?

Post by Brad Templeton
End of story until they got called to the Viper, and then when they
touched things on the 13th colonly.

Post by Ian B
The Five and the Seven have the same nature. They are the same
"species" or genera anyway of biological robot thing. That is
overwhemingly clear from

You can keep saying this but tell me where in the show it demonstrates
this.

I can't think of another way to answer this. The Five know they are Cylons.
The Seven know they are Cylons. They each know the other are Cylons. They
can test for Cylonness. Everyone called a Cylon in the show is a Cylon and
everyone who isn't called a Cylon isn't a Cylon. How much more demonstration
do you need?

Post by Brad Templeton
More to the point. Tell us where in the show it contradicts
the writers who, I have noted several times now, have said the exact
opposite thing. "Fundamentally different type of Cylon."

Yes, type of Cylon. Like, Africans and Europeans are different types of
human being, but they're both human beings. Spiny anteaters, on the other
hand, aren't human beings. There is a scientific test which can distinguish
humans from spiny anteaters. Africans and Europeans will both pass it and
the spiny anteaters will fail it.

Post by Brad Templeton
You keep saying things but there is nothing in the show to back
them up. Believe me, I have looked to these things, so have lots
of other people. If you think they are there, you have to name
them.

I have done multiple times.

What are you saying here? That the Five won't test positive as Cylons? That
the humans will? Do you assert either of these things? If not, you have to
face the inevitability that there are two classes of humanoid creature in
the show; humans and Cylons, and that the Twelve are in the second class and
the rest of the characters are in the first.


Ian

[Brad Templeton]

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
as Tyrol said, "We're Cylons, and we have been from the start."

Doesn't that line "we're Cylons..." give you some kind of clue?

Not in the slightest? Should it, in a discussion of whether the
word Cylon, to the characters means one thing or another.

It is a tautology. Whatever they think Cylon means is what
they have come to know they are. But it is important to know
that the writers have told us, they have told us, they don't
know what it means. It's just a switch that went off, and they
knew, without knowing what it means to be their type of Cylon.

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
You can keep saying this but tell me where in the show it demonstrates
this.

I can't think of another way to answer this. The Five know they are Cylons.
The Seven know they are Cylons. They each know the other are Cylons. They

No, the seven believe they know that they were the result of
experiments on adapting human biology to hold the minds of creatures
that started as robots. The seven think they have a history of evolving
from metal robots.

The 5 do not think that, they knew _nothing_ until they got to the 13th
colony, and started to learn bits of their history.

They don't "know they are Cylons" in the same way at all. In fact,
there is nothign in common between the two and their knowledge of their
own histories and how and why they are Cylons.

Post by Ian B
can test for Cylonness. Everyone called a Cylon in the show is a Cylon and
everyone who isn't called a Cylon isn't a Cylon. How much more demonstration
do you need?

We have never seen the results of a test on the 5. We have, in fact
only seen Baltar's test on #8, and Six's test on the skeletons.

Post by Ian B
Yes, type of Cylon. Like, Africans and Europeans are different types of
human being, but they're both human beings. Spiny anteaters, on the other

They are not "fundamentally" different. This is more like "Humans
and Chimps" are fundamentally different types of Apes. Well, not that
much like that, but more like that.

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
of other people. If you think they are there, you have to name
them.

I have done multiple times.

Ok, well I missed all of them, so list them again please. Real ways
in which the 5 and 7 have been shown to have similar properties, beyond
the fact that they are both artificial, and can have repressed memories.

Oh, I think there are many ways, I think they _are_ related, but not in
the way you think. But my point is we have not yet been shown. If you
want to debate theories, great. But they are just theories.

I had this debate a lot in season 3. People kept saying "NO way can
characters like Tigh and Adama and etc. be Cylons, because Cylons are
this and Cylons are not. And I kept telling people they were wrong,
they were making a false assumption of similarity. I am surprised
to see it again. There will be similarities, but they are not yet
demonstrated.

Post by Ian B
What are you saying here? That the Five won't test positive as Cylons? That
the humans will? Do you assert either of these things? If not, you have to
face the inevitability that there are two classes of humanoid creature in
the show; humans and Cylons, and that the Twelve are in the second class and
the rest of the characters are in the first.

I am saying many things are possible. Colonials will not test positive
in #6's detector, or she didn't build it wel as it was designed to test
for that. We have no idea how the Final 5 will test in any detector.

However, that is independent of whether the humans are fully artificial
(ie. Cylons) or just bioengineered (tweaked) or fully natural. Nobody
on the show (except the string puller) knows just what all the beings
are and how they came to be.

I currently suspect there are six classes of humanoids in the show.

a) 7 Cylons (possibly derived from the 5)
b) 5 Cylons
c) 13th tribe (possibly derived from the 5)
d) Lords of Kobol
e) Colonials (possibly made by D)
f) Humans (on original Earth, not 13th colony)

I believe there are relationships. F came first, and I suspect B was
derived from them first, but we don't have a lot to go on.

However, I am not certain of this at all. We don't have enough to know
it's not true, or that it is true. Well, if we wanted to be really
strict about our science, it's clear that the colonials must be
artificial and not natural humans, but we can't always be that strict.

[DaffyDuck]

Post by Ian B
Apparently they *do* think they are Cylons in the same way as the other
Cylons think they're Cylons. The clue here is that they use the same word
for "Cylon" as other Cylons do. So the question is how Cylons came to be
reinvented on Caprica.

I think this is where the 'Head Six' guidance will come into being,
i.e. it may have guided earlier humans in developing and 'discovering'
the technology needed to create a technology they will call 'Cylon'

Sounds to me like we may not have seen the last of Tricia Helfer in the
BSG Universe.
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[DaffyDuck]

Post by Ian B
So
far as we know, the Five died 2000 years ago, and have been reborn in the
Colonies 2000 years later.

Not necessarily, if you consider the Temple of the Five that housed
them as well, dating back 4,000 years earlier - either their
resurrection cycles are 2,000 years, or they get reborn and resurrected
in different intervals.
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[Joetheone]

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton

We don't *actually* know that they have one [resurrection tech].
How many times do I
have to remind you of this?

Ellen said they have one, why do you think she's wrong?

Ur-Ellen said they would be "reborn", not resurrected. The only
indications we have so far is that they are born, age and die like
humans. We are certain that they age. Adama has known both Tigh and
Ellen long enough to be certain of that- indeed it was one of his
arguments against Tigh's confession of being a Cylon.

I would consider being reborn, with your memories present but
repressed, to be a ressurection tech. Since the Final Five were
involved in creating the 7 Cylons, if their system can't also put
their mind into
a more adult body, that's by choice, not by lack of knowledge of how
to do it.

Read the thread again please. We are discussing whether they, the FF, have
their own ressurection facilities. Unless they've been secretly using SS
ones (which would mean some collaboration from at least one SS model) they
don't appear to have any.
Ellen didn't say they have a resurrection facility. She said she and Saul
would be "reborn". How, we do not know.

Post by Brad Templeton
Ian

The only collaboration they'd need would be from the Hybrids, who seem to be
in on everything, anyway, and, no matter what D'Anna seems to think, are
Smarter Than The Average Skinjob. They could put up a bulkhead, or make the
others theink there's a bulkhead, and have any number of copies of the 5 on
any ordinary Rez ship. Or basheship, for that matter.
I'd like to know if the 5 show up as Cylon on the Cylon scientific (not
instinctual) tests, and if they match the remains found on Earth?

[DaffyDuck]

Post by Ian B
Unless they've been secretly using SS
ones (which would mean some collaboration from at least one SS model) they
don't appear to have any.

Holy cow, I missed the Nazi Cylons?
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[Magnus, Robot Fighter]

On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 20:18:01 -0800, DaffyDuck

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by Ian B
Unless they've been secretly using SS
ones (which would mean some collaboration from at least one SS model) they
don't appear to have any.

Holy cow, I missed the Nazi Cylons?

Duh. That one humanocylon went back in time and..uhh..the guy from
Adam-12 and the other one had to go after him.

[OM]

On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 20:18:01 -0800, DaffyDuck

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by Ian B
Unless they've been secretly using SS
ones (which would mean some collaboration from at least one SS model) they
don't appear to have any.

Holy cow, I missed the Nazi Cylons?

"...Annnd...nowww...it's...springtime, for Cylon, and Caprica! The
Colonies, are shiny, and chrome!!"


OM

[DaffyDuck]

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
How did Shelley Godfrey leave the fleet?

Out an airlock? Threw herself in a trash compactor?

Nope, that doesn't work - as per the events, they were following her,
and she walked around a corner, and when the colonials following her
did the same, she was gone, apparently with nowhere to go.

The Shelley Godfrey incident is an interest situation, as it marks the
first time the 'Head Six' entity was able to manifest herself in what
appeared to be a public space -- there's two thoughts on this:

- She need not have been physically there, as long as the 'Head Six'
entity is able to simultaneously control multiple humans' perception of
her - so, as long as they all see the same illusion, they will all
think her to be to real. This would explain how she could have
'disappeared' into thin air.

- It also would explain the way the Heavy Raider was visible in the
video footage when Kara 'died', and we 'saw' it from behind Apollo's
Viper.

At least that's a better explanation than most others offered.

The Shelley Godfrey incident was an interesting one.
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[n***@nospam.com]

You're forgetting that she left a pair of glasses in C&C. She
physically existed.


On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 20:58:20 -0800, DaffyDuck

Post by DaffyDuck
The Shelley Godfrey incident is an interest situation, as it marks the
first time the 'Head Six' entity was able to manifest herself in what
- She need not have been physically there, as long as the 'Head Six'
entity is able to simultaneously control multiple humans' perception of
her - so, as long as they all see the same illusion, they will all
think her to be to real. This would explain how she could have
'disappeared' into thin air.

[DaffyDuck]

Post by n***@nospam.com
You're forgetting that she left a pair of glasses in C&C. She
physically existed.

Did she?

The glasses could also just be manipulation of perception.
--
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[Dillon Pyron]

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by n***@nospam.com
You're forgetting that she left a pair of glasses in C&C. She
physically existed.

Did she?
The glasses could also just be manipulation of perception.

Or perhaps you perceive it as a manipulation of perception.

Or perhaps I perceive it as your perception of manipulation of
perception.

Or perhaps (sounds of hundreds of NG readers tossing various meals
and drinks mixed with gastric juices on the floors, walls, keyboards
and monitors)

[Brad Templeton]

Post by Dillon Pyron

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by n***@nospam.com
You're forgetting that she left a pair of glasses in C&C. She
physically existed.

Did she?
The glasses could also just be manipulation of perception.

Or perhaps you perceive it as a manipulation of perception.

Or perhaps, if she wasn't physical, she still picked up some physical
glasses somewhere on the ship, so she could leave them behind.

[OM]

On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 22:24:38 -0600, Dillon Pyron

Post by Dillon Pyron

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by n***@nospam.com
You're forgetting that she left a pair of glasses in C&C. She
physically existed.

Did she?
The glasses could also just be manipulation of perception.

Or perhaps you perceive it as a manipulation of perception.
Or perhaps I perceive it as your perception of manipulation of
perception.
Or perhaps (sounds of hundreds of NG readers tossing various meals
and drinks mixed with gastric juices on the floors, walls, keyboards
and monitors)

...Well, it's official. Whatever Brad is smoking, he's peddling it to
the other kids in the a.b-g neighborhood.


OM

[p***@aol.com]

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by p***@aol.com

Post by JGB
Remember way back when Boomer didn't even know yet she was a cylon and
Baltar was building a cylon detector?  He used it on her and it was
positive but, after talking it over with the phantom 6, he decided to
keep his mouth shut.  Then Ellen shows up and they immediately make
her take the test because they suspect she is not really Ellen but a
cylon lookalike.  She passed that test.

No, we don't know that. Six asked what Baltar really found, and he
said he'd never tell - at the time rather implying she was a Cylon. He
decided to pass everyone. How he'll react to seeing Ellen back might
give us a clue as to what he really found.
The really interesting question is: why didn't the Cylon detector pick
up Tigh or Tyrol? Baltar was testing people for several months, and
since he had instructions to do people in sensitive positions first,
there's no way these two should have avoided being tested. But Baltar
has never shown any indication that he believed either character was a
Cylon. In this case the explanation lies with sloppy writing - despite
occasional references to lots of people having been tested, the show's

Well, one simple explanation is that Tigh and Tyrol were not chosen
to be Cylons until mid season 3.  

Which, I'd argue, amounts to sloppy writing - fair enough, I know I
say that about the idea of the Final Five in general. But selecting
people who ought to have been ruled out as Cylons in previous stories
*is* sloppy. More to the point, there is no evidence Moore thought
through who was getting tested - "people in sensitive positions", he
tells us, but we know for a fact Baltar never tested himself (hence
worrying about whether he was a Cylon) - and what position could be
more sensitive than the person doing the tests (not to mention that he
had carte blanche to fiddle the results without Gaeta or someone else
looking over his shoulder)? Nor has there been any suggestion that
either Tigh or Tyrol was ever tested, despite the fact that XO and
deck chief are two of the most critical positions there are - we don't
see them wondering, for instance, why Baltar's detector hadn't worked
on them.

Post by Brad Templeton
But it seems likely that F5 did not show up in his detector would be
how I would retcon it.   After all, how could inner-Six not be able
to know what the detector said on Ellen?

We know she couldn't - we don't know quite what the deal is with her
anyway, but she doesn't seem to have access to knowledge Gaius gained
while she wasn't there. But had the test not been positive, why would
Baltar equivocate anyway? It seems likely from the events of "Tigh Me
Up..." that Baltar's detector did flag Ellen up as a Cylon. And since
we know the 13th Tribe is sufficiently recognisable as Cylon
technology for the others to recognise it, we don't have any basis for
supposing Baltar's detector can't identify the Final Five. Indeed, the
only explanation we have so far for Six's desire to have the detector
built in the first place is so that she could find out who the Five
were.

Given the way the writers definitely did drop the ball on the Cylon
detector in other respects (such as ignoring it when they wanted
Baltar to wonder if he was a Cylon), my instinct is that the Tigh/
Tyrol issue is another case of lack of foresight and/or deliberately
ignoring a plot device they tried to wriggle out of since the main
series began.

Phil

Phil

[Brad Templeton]

Post by p***@aol.com
We know she couldn't - we don't know quite what the deal is with her
anyway, but she doesn't seem to have access to knowledge Gaius gained
while she wasn't there. But had the test not been positive, why would
Baltar equivocate anyway? It seems likely from the events of "Tigh Me
Up..." that Baltar's detector did flag Ellen up as a Cylon. And since

Well, truth is what it said was not revealed in script, and unless
Baltar tells, "yes, I knew that all along" we will never learn what it
said. If it did flag Ellen, it didn't flag her has final 5.

But if you think about it, Baltar hung out around the #3 while she
hunted for the 5. Baltar asked her, "Why have I only seen 7 models?"
Why didn't he say, "Why have I only seen 8?" (Or 9 or 10?) That
would have caused #3 to go nuts.

So we can conclude that Baltar is either a much better liar and knows
deep secrets, or he would have mentioned, "Well, what about Ellen?"

Post by p***@aol.com
only explanation we have so far for Six's desire to have the detector
built in the first place is so that she could find out who the Five
were.

That's _not_ Six. That's somebody else who I would bet already knows
who the final five are. (But of course did not in S1 when the
writers did not know)

[p***@aol.com]

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by p***@aol.com
We know she couldn't - we don't know quite what the deal is with her
anyway, but she doesn't seem to have access to knowledge Gaius gained
while she wasn't there. But had the test not been positive, why would
Baltar equivocate anyway? It seems likely from the events of "Tigh Me
Up..." that Baltar's detector did flag Ellen up as a Cylon. And since

Well, truth is what it said was not revealed in script, and unless
Baltar tells, "yes, I knew that all along" we will never learn what it
said.   If it did flag Ellen, it didn't flag her has final 5.

But that's the point - a Cylon is a Cylon. The detector was only
intended to catch Cylons, but Final Five or not Ellen is Cylon.

Post by Brad Templeton
But if you think about it, Baltar hung out around the #3 while she
hunted for the 5.  Baltar asked her, "Why have I only seen 7 models?"
Why didn't he say, "Why have I only seen 8?"  (Or 9 or 10?)  That
would have caused #3 to go nuts.

That's a good point. As I said he didn't indicate that he knew Tigh or
Tyrol was a Cylon; I'd forgotten that he explicitly ruled out knowing
the others.

Post by Brad Templeton
So we can conclude that Baltar is either a much better liar and knows
deep secrets, or he would have mentioned, "Well, what about Ellen?"

What exactly did he say? As I recall, he told Six "All the time on New
Caprica, I only saw seven Cylon models. Here, again, the same seven".
He isn't actually saying he hasn't seen any other Cylons in the fleet
on a strict reading, and he's less interested in who the Five are than
whether one of them is him (incidentally, do we know what he was
'right' about according to DeAnna, since it's plainly not that he's a
Cylon?). I think though that that may be overanalysing it, and I think
you're right that the implication is he didn't know any of the
others.

Phil

[Brad Templeton]

Post by p***@aol.com
What exactly did he say? As I recall, he told Six "All the time on New
Caprica, I only saw seven Cylon models. Here, again, the same seven".
He isn't actually saying he hasn't seen any other Cylons in the fleet
on a strict reading, and he's less interested in who the Five are than
whether one of them is him (incidentally, do we know what he was
'right' about according to DeAnna, since it's plainly not that he's a
Cylon?). I think though that that may be overanalysing it, and I think
you're right that the implication is he didn't know any of the
others.

Sorry, but this is really stretching it. And if you really need
more proof, if he knew who the Final Five were, all this time, it
doesn't match his behaviour at all. First of all, he would not have
been wondering if he was a Cylon, he would know the slots were filled.
He would have blabbed under the drug Roslin gave him, or stopped D'Anna
from all those suicides. He would have acted differently in some
fashion. He would have warned them their centurions were shooting at
Tyrol and Anders (Anders is the only one he just _might_ not have
personally tested.) He would have offered the information in trade
when his life was threatened by the fleet, or Cavil or all the others.

He would not have told Tory, "I always suspected" -- he would have
said that he knew, because her test was positive.

There are 100 different ways Baltar would not have done as he did
if he know the identity of the 5, or even just of one of them!
With the gun to his head, he would have said, "Don't shoot, I know
who one of your precious final five is!"

[p***@aol.com]

Post by p***@aol.com
What exactly did he say? As I recall, he told Six "All the time on New
Caprica, I only saw seven Cylon models. Here, again, the same seven".
He isn't actually saying he hasn't seen any other Cylons in the fleet
on a strict reading, and he's less interested in who the Five are than
whether one of them is him (incidentally, do we know what he was
'right' about according to DeAnna, since it's plainly not that he's a
Cylon?). I think though that that may be overanalysing it, and I think
you're right that the implication is he didn't know any of the
others.

Sorry, but this is really stretching it.  

As I said, it probably is overanalysing it, but no more so than some
of your suggestions.

And if you really need

more proof, if he knew who the Final Five were, all this time, it
doesn't match his behaviour at all.

As far as we know, he only ever tested one of them (and I've been the
one pointing out that he ought to have tested Tigh, Tyrol and himself
before now - Anders is in a less critical position, and Baltar may not
have been doing the blood tests any more when Tory was appointed to a
high-risk position).

 First of all, he would not have

been wondering if he was a Cylon, he would know the slots were filled.

Not if he only knew one of them. This is where you're stretching.

He would have blabbed under the drug Roslin gave him,

Under the drug he only told Roslin what he was asked. Roslin didn't
know about the Final Five at the time.

or stopped D'Anna

from all those suicides.

When did he learn she was doing it? Did he learn why she was doing it
until she told him? He's not exactly privy to what goes on after
Cylons die; why would he even have suspected she was doing it to find
the Five?

  He would have acted differently in some

fashion.   He would have warned them their centurions were shooting at
Tyrol and Anders (Anders is the only one he just _might_ not have
personally tested.)  

You're missing a point. He never tested Tyrol. This we know for a
fact, because Tigh had him sent to Boomer's cell to test Tyrol in
season 2 - and instead Baltar drugged him. If Tyrol's results had
already been known, this wouldn't have happened. And this is the sort
of thing I've been complaining about; as Adama said in Litmus, Tyrol
keeps his ship running and could take it down if he wanted to. His
position is almost uniquely critical, probably more so than the XO.
And yet we know for certain that he was never tested. This is what I
was complaining about, after all.

He would have offered the information in trade

when his life was threatened by the fleet,

At what point exactly would it have helped his cause to say "I know
that a dead woman was a Cylon"? If they saw her again they'd have
worked it out for themselves.

He would not have told Tory, "I always suspected" -- he would have
said that he knew, because her test was positive.

What basis do we have for supposing she was ever tested? She was just
a random civilian until Billy died, and the Cylon detector arc had
disappeared without trace before that.

There are 100 different ways Baltar would not have done as he did
if he know the identity of the 5, or even just of one of them!
With the gun to his head, he would have said, "Don't shoot, I know
who one of your precious final five is!"

How? He didn't even know the Final Five were a big deal to the Cylons
until he was on the basestar after New Caprica; he had a gun to his
head (and Cavill threatening to kill him) on the planet.

Phil

[Brad Templeton]

Post by p***@aol.com

Post by Brad Templeton
There are 100 different ways Baltar would not have done as he did
if he know the identity of the 5, or even just of one of them!
With the gun to his head, he would have said, "Don't shoot, I know
who one of your precious final five is!"

How? He didn't even know the Final Five were a big deal to the Cylons
until he was on the basestar after New Caprica; he had a gun to his
head (and Cavill threatening to kill him) on the planet.

Sorry, you are correct about that. However, it remains the case that
none of his behaviour is consistent with him knowing who any of the
Final five are, and all of it is consistent with him not knowing.

And with Baltar, we don't just see his actions. We see his inner
dialogue regularly. All those conversations with inner Six about
these matters, and there were many, and it never comes up after
one quip when he tests Ellen.

It's a major stretch to say it worked, and no stretch to say it
didn't, so it's pretty clear what to believe for now. There are
many forms of Cylon technology -- multiple robotic types, plus
several distinct biological types. There are at least two
origins (the robotic and biological) but probably multiple
origins among each of those types. And to the characters, the
term has come to simply mean "artificial being" and no longer
means, "derived from the robots built by Graystone" as it did
to them at the start.

[Ian B]

In article

Post by p***@aol.com

Post by Brad Templeton
There are 100 different ways Baltar would not have done as he did
if he know the identity of the 5, or even just of one of them!
With the gun to his head, he would have said, "Don't shoot, I know
who one of your precious final five is!"

How? He didn't even know the Final Five were a big deal to the Cylons
until he was on the basestar after New Caprica; he had a gun to his
head (and Cavill threatening to kill him) on the planet.

Sorry, you are correct about that. However, it remains the case that
none of his behaviour is consistent with him knowing who any of the
Final five are, and all of it is consistent with him not knowing.
And with Baltar, we don't just see his actions. We see his inner
dialogue regularly. All those conversations with inner Six about
these matters, and there were many, and it never comes up after
one quip when he tests Ellen.
It's a major stretch to say it worked, and no stretch to say it
didn't, so it's pretty clear what to believe for now. There are
many forms of Cylon technology -- multiple robotic types, plus
several distinct biological types. There are at least two
origins (the robotic and biological) but probably multiple
origins among each of those types. And to the characters, the
term has come to simply mean "artificial being" and no longer
means, "derived from the robots built by Graystone" as it did
to them at the start.

Maybe. Because all the artificial beings they've encountered have been
Cylons- as such it would be like calling all ballpoint pens Biros.

Nonetheless, not all ballpoint pens *are* Biros. As such, you can't stretch
the word "cylon" across to mean "any artificial being in the BSG universe".
Specifically, you may hypothesise that the humans in the series once had an
artificial origin. But that wouldn't make them "cylons" and thus you cannot
speculate that they have cylon abilities (e.g. for Starbuck to download).

The Cylons in the series have a commonality not shared by the humans, and
not by an android built by somebody else within that universe. The word
"cylon" isn't a word that means "any artificial being".


Ian

[Brad Templeton]

Post by Ian B
The Cylons in the series have a commonality not shared by the humans, and
not by an android built by somebody else within that universe. The word
"cylon" isn't a word that means "any artificial being".

Yes, I understand that is what you think, but how do you _know_ that?
The point is we don't know.

I can tell you though, that if they come to a planet and find it
populated by metal robots, they would call them Cylons. That much I
can sense about how the characters use the term. I know this because
I know they don't use it exactly, they are no longer sure of what it
means themselves. The ones that call themselves humans, anyway.
The "self described machines" I am not as sure about, they might use
the term to describe beings they think are related to themselves in
some way. But since the colonials already changed what the term means
in their own heads, I know the term is not fixed for them.

[Brad Templeton]

By the way, as to the word "reborn"

Thanks to the anal fans who transcribe all the episodes, various lines
where the S7 talk about it


Gina: I knew what I was. I was a soldier. I-I had a mission, I carried
it out. I thought that when it was done I was going to die. That you
would kill me. Then I-- then I would download into a new body...be
reborn. But you didn't kill me. The things you did to me.

Boomer: This guy's probably died and been reborn a dozen times. You
may have faced him before. Starbuck: So
what, raiders reincarnate? Just like you?
Boomer: Yeah, just like me.

Boomer: Dying's a painful and traumatic experience. Every time he's
reborn, he's filled with more bitter memories. Scar hates you every bit
as much as you hate him.

#6: Where--where-- I was in a house.
Biers: But you're not in a house any longer. You're back with us. You've been reborn.
#6: I died. I died.
Biers: That's right. You were in a house. It was destroyed. A nuclear blast.
But that is all over now. You have been downloaded into aa new body.



Does anybody wish to make any alterations to the interpretation that
Ellen saying "reborn" demands that it be as a baby?

[Ian B]

Post by Brad Templeton
By the way, as to the word "reborn"
Thanks to the anal fans who transcribe all the episodes, various lines
where the S7 talk about it
Gina: I knew what I was. I was a soldier. I-I had a mission, I
carried it out. I thought that when it was done I was going to
die. That you would kill me. Then I-- then I would download into a
new body...be reborn. But you didn't kill me. The things you did
to me.
Boomer: This guy's probably died and been reborn a dozen times. You
may have faced him before. Starbuck: So
what, raiders reincarnate? Just like you?
Boomer: Yeah, just like me.
Boomer: Dying's a painful and traumatic experience. Every time he's
reborn, he's filled with more bitter memories. Scar hates you
every bit as much as you hate him.
#6:Â Where--where-- I was in a house.
Biers: But you're not in a house any longer. You're back with us.
You've been reborn. #6:Â I died. I died.
Biers: That's right. You were in a house. It was destroyed. A
nuclear blast. But that is all over now. You have been downloaded
into aa new body.
Does anybody wish to make any alterations to the interpretation that
Ellen saying "reborn" demands that it be as a baby?

Context...

[Brad Templeton]

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
By the way, as to the word "reborn"
Thanks to the anal fans who transcribe all the episodes, various lines
where the S7 talk about it
Gina: I knew what I was. I was a soldier. I-I had a mission, I
carried it out. I thought that when it was done I was going to
die. That you would kill me. Then I-- then I would download into a
new body...be reborn. But you didn't kill me. The things you did
to me.

This is Gina, the copy of six on the Pegasus.

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
Boomer: This guy's probably died and been reborn a dozen times. You
may have faced him before. Starbuck: So
what, raiders reincarnate? Just like you?
Boomer: Yeah, just like me.
Boomer: Dying's a painful and traumatic experience. Every time he's
reborn, he's filled with more bitter memories. Scar hates you
every bit as much as you hate him.

This is from "Scar"

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
#6:Â Where--where-- I was in a house.
Biers: But you're not in a house any longer. You're back with us.
You've been reborn. #6:Â I died. I died.
Biers: That's right. You were in a house. It was destroyed. A
nuclear blast. But that is all over now. You have been downloaded
into aa new body.

This is from "Downloaded" right after Caprica Six is, to use
#3's words, reborn.

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton
Does anybody wish to make any alterations to the interpretation that
Ellen saying "reborn" demands that it be as a baby?

Context...

Sorry, though it was obvious, have included it above

[Ian B]

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B
The Cylons in the series have a commonality not shared by the
humans, and not by an android built by somebody else within that
universe. The word "cylon" isn't a word that means "any artificial
being".

Yes, I understand that is what you think, but how do you _know_ that?
The point is we don't know.

We _know_ that because we have already seen detectors that can distinguish
between cylons and humans- so if the humans are historically artificial,
they are _still_ distinct from cylons.

[Brad Templeton]

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B
The Cylons in the series have a commonality not shared by the
humans, and not by an android built by somebody else within that
universe. The word "cylon" isn't a word that means "any artificial
being".

Yes, I understand that is what you think, but how do you _know_ that?
The point is we don't know.

We _know_ that because we have already seen detectors that can distinguish
between cylons and humans- so if the humans are historically artificial,
they are _still_ distinct from cylons.

Well of course they are different. But just what are we arguing about
here? Are you saying that:

a) If the "humans" turn out to be programmed, artificial beings
that they will not think that they are Cylons? That
they will still be "humans" from their perspective or
the audience's?

b) Or just that they'll be an even more different from the
7 than the 13th tribe were, and so they'll want to come up
with a new word? Or the audience will?


You seem to think that somewhere in the show, they defined "Cylon"
to mean, "Returns a positive on whatever test #6 uses." I just
have not seen them define the term in the show _at all_. In fact,
I've seen them change the interpretation of the term several times.

This is a pretty minor thing to be arguing about, and more to the
point, why is it worth arguing about? Is there a special point
that this makes? There is no arguing that #6 has a test which
tests positive for herself, for 13th tribesmen and not for colonials.
We've always known the 7 Cylons, 5 Cylons and colonials are different
in a number of fundamental ways.

But, as the writers promise us, this season will "blur the line
between human and Cylon."

So what are we arguing about?

[Ian B]

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B
The Cylons in the series have a commonality not shared by the
humans, and not by an android built by somebody else within that
universe. The word "cylon" isn't a word that means "any artificial
being".

Yes, I understand that is what you think, but how do you _know_
that? The point is we don't know.

We _know_ that because we have already seen detectors that can
distinguish between cylons and humans- so if the humans are
historically artificial, they are _still_ distinct from cylons.

Well of course they are different. But just what are we arguing about
a) If the "humans" turn out to be programmed, artificial beings
that they will not think that they are Cylons? That
they will still be "humans" from their perspective or
the audience's?
b) Or just that they'll be an even more different from the
7 than the 13th tribe were, and so they'll want to come up
with a new word? Or the audience will?
You seem to think that somewhere in the show, they defined "Cylon"
to mean, "Returns a positive on whatever test #6 uses." I just
have not seen them define the term in the show _at all_. In fact,
I've seen them change the interpretation of the term several times.
This is a pretty minor thing to be arguing about, and more to the
point, why is it worth arguing about? Is there a special point
that this makes? There is no arguing that #6 has a test which
tests positive for herself, for 13th tribesmen and not for colonials.
We've always known the 7 Cylons, 5 Cylons and colonials are different
in a number of fundamental ways.
But, as the writers promise us, this season will "blur the line
between human and Cylon."
So what are we arguing about?

Well, this is the continuation of the argument about whether Starbuck might
be another Cylon. You have put forward the hypothesis that all the humans
are artificial and, having decided for yourself that the word "cylon" is a
generic noun for any artificial being, use this as an argument that Starbuck
might be a cylon (artifical being) and thus downloaded in the Maelstrom.

Phil and i have been arguing that the show clearly states that there are 12
cylon models, we've seen them all, and the show makes it clear that there is
a demonstrable distinction between cylons and not-cylons, and that even if
your suggestion that humans are artificial is correct, they still would not
be cylons, and thus one cannot extrapolate cylon abilities (such as
downloading) to the non-cylons, regardless of their origins.

The Seven and the Five are cylons. The humans aren't.


Ian

[DaffyDuck]

Post by p***@aol.com
The really interesting question is: why didn't the Cylon detector pick
up Tigh or Tyrol? Baltar was testing people for several months, and
since he had instructions to do people in sensitive positions first,
there's no way these two should have avoided being tested.

The Seven test differently than the Five.
--
Feed your Killfile:
Terry Austin (<***@myway.com>, <***@gmail.com>, et al);
***@gmail.com; catpandaddy <***@cat.pan.net>; Anybody:
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The-Captain <Capt-***@hotmail.com>; Tim McGaughy <***@toast.net>;
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<***@atlasbugged.com>; Your Name <***@isp.com>; Slayah
<***@hellmouth.com>; Karl <***@yahoo.com>; Ron
<***@msn.com>; Brad Templeton <***@templetons.com>

[p***@aol.com]

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by p***@aol.com
The really interesting question is: why didn't the Cylon detector pick
up Tigh or Tyrol? Baltar was testing people for several months, and
since he had instructions to do people in sensitive positions first,
there's no way these two should have avoided being tested.

The Seven test differently than the Five.

No, we have no reason to believe that. What we know for sure is that
13th Tribe Cylons are identifiable as Cylons, and we also have a big
hint that Baltar's test identified Ellen as being Cylon. At the same
time we've been given no suggestion that, despite their positions,
Tigh and Tyrol were ever tested. Based on this, the most likely
explanation is that the detector works on Final Five Cylons, but that
the writers ignored/forgot this later on.

Supporting evidence comes from the way the Cylon detector story was
handled as a whole. Plainly the writers thought it was a good idea in
the miniseries, but as soon as the main show started they realised
that it was going to be difficult to work around and tried as hard as
they could to get rid of it. Why didn't Baltar go to Adama behind
Boomer's back? Why didn't he institute a system where multiple people
were trained to use the device, so that not only could people use it
in Baltar's absence, but the Cylons would have no way of knowing who
exposed them? Why wasn't Baltar himself tested, since no one could
rule out his being a Cylon, and if he were it was vitally important to
know that upfront? Why was Gaeta not assigned to carry on Baltar's
work after he moved onto other things? Etc. etc. They just wanted shot
of the whole story arc and didn't much care how shoddy the
storytelling had to be to get rid of it.

Phil

[Ian B]

Post by p***@aol.com

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by p***@aol.com
The really interesting question is: why didn't the Cylon detector
pick up Tigh or Tyrol? Baltar was testing people for several
months, and since he had instructions to do people in sensitive
positions first, there's no way these two should have avoided being
tested.

The Seven test differently than the Five.

No, we have no reason to believe that. What we know for sure is that
13th Tribe Cylons are identifiable as Cylons, and we also have a big
hint that Baltar's test identified Ellen as being Cylon. At the same
time we've been given no suggestion that, despite their positions,
Tigh and Tyrol were ever tested. Based on this, the most likely
explanation is that the detector works on Final Five Cylons, but that
the writers ignored/forgot this later on.
Supporting evidence comes from the way the Cylon detector story was
handled as a whole. Plainly the writers thought it was a good idea in
the miniseries, but as soon as the main show started they realised
that it was going to be difficult to work around and tried as hard as
they could to get rid of it. Why didn't Baltar go to Adama behind
Boomer's back? Why didn't he institute a system where multiple people
were trained to use the device, so that not only could people use it
in Baltar's absence, but the Cylons would have no way of knowing who
exposed them? Why wasn't Baltar himself tested, since no one could
rule out his being a Cylon, and if he were it was vitally important to
know that upfront? Why was Gaeta not assigned to carry on Baltar's
work after he moved onto other things? Etc. etc. They just wanted shot
of the whole story arc and didn't much care how shoddy the
storytelling had to be to get rid of it.

Well, if you want to start nitpicking...

I watched the miniseries a few days ago (I was just going to watch a bit of
it, but then kept going) and lots of things don't make sense. Why is Leoben
at Ragnar? No reason is given. Was he hoping a Battlestar would arrive and
he could get taken aboard? Why? The cylons were just intersted in
destruction at that point; it'd make much more sense for them to have just
destroyed Ragnar, since they apparently knew about it.

Wasn't it remarkable that Adama guessed that Leobon was a cylon? So far as
Adama knew at that point, cylons are big clunky robots. Anybody seeing
Leoben would have first presumed he was suffering from some horrible
disease, or a junkie (if they have junkies in the BSG universe).

Then there's the whole plot with Aaron Doral. Ignoring that there doesn't
seem to be much reason to his behaviour, the main plot point with Baltar is
that Baltar fingers him as a cylon as an excuse to point out indirectly the
mysterious cylon device on the DRADIS. Because Head Six points out to him
that if he raises an alarm people will wonder how he knew what a cylon
device looks like. But considering he'd been taken on as scientific advisor,
and to investigate the ship's systems and computers and figure out what went
wrong, and considering the obvious nature of the cylon "thing", he could
have easily got around that by just peeking at the DRADIS, out of supposed
interest, then saying to Gaeta or someone, "what's that odd thing stuck to
it?"

I can't remember, but did we ever find out what the thing was, anyway?

And so on.


Ian

[p***@aol.com]

Post by Ian B

Post by p***@aol.com

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by p***@aol.com
The really interesting question is: why didn't the Cylon detector
pick up Tigh or Tyrol? Baltar was testing people for several
months, and since he had instructions to do people in sensitive
positions first, there's no way these two should have avoided being
tested.

The Seven test differently than the Five.

No, we have no reason to believe that. What we know for sure is that
13th Tribe Cylons are identifiable as Cylons, and we also have a big
hint that Baltar's test identified Ellen as being Cylon. At the same
time we've been given no suggestion that, despite their positions,
Tigh and Tyrol were ever tested. Based on this, the most likely
explanation is that the detector works on Final Five Cylons, but that
the writers ignored/forgot this later on.
Supporting evidence comes from the way the Cylon detector story was
handled as a whole. Plainly the writers thought it was a good idea in
the miniseries, but as soon as the main show started they realised
that it was going to be difficult to work around and tried as hard as
they could to get rid of it. Why didn't Baltar go to Adama behind
Boomer's back? Why didn't he institute a system where multiple people
were trained to use the device, so that not only could people use it
in Baltar's absence, but the Cylons would have no way of knowing who
exposed them? Why wasn't Baltar himself tested, since no one could
rule out his being a Cylon, and if he were it was vitally important to
know that upfront? Why was Gaeta not assigned to carry on Baltar's
work after he moved onto other things? Etc. etc. They just wanted shot
of the whole story arc and didn't much care how shoddy the
storytelling had to be to get rid of it.

Well, if you want to start nitpicking...
I watched the miniseries a few days ago (I was just going to watch a bit of
it, but then kept going) and lots of things don't make sense.  Why is Leoben
at Ragnar? No reason is given. Was he hoping a Battlestar would arrive and
he could get taken aboard? Why? The cylons were just intersted in
destruction at that point; it'd make much more sense for them to have just
destroyed Ragnar, since they apparently knew about it.

Ah, but they had a Plan then, remember. That meant they were allowed
to do things that didn't make any sense.

Post by Ian B
Wasn't it remarkable that Adama guessed that Leobon was a cylon? So far as
Adama knew at that point, cylons are big clunky robots. Anybody seeing
Leoben would have first presumed he was suffering from some horrible
disease, or a junkie (if they have junkies in the BSG universe).

I thought when watching the Razor flashbacks on YouTube that the
prisoner Adama talked to was Leoben, which would have given a possible
explanation - but when seeing the better-quality DVD version that
resemblance disappeared. It's still possible that the fact Adama had
seen way back then that they were carrying out experiments on humans
of some sort might have given him a clue, but as I read it at the time
Leoben gave himself away by eulogising the Cylons.

Post by Ian B
Then there's the whole plot with Aaron Doral. Ignoring that there doesn't
seem to be much reason to his behaviour, the main plot point with Baltar is
that Baltar fingers him as a cylon as an excuse to point out indirectly the
mysterious cylon device on the DRADIS. Because Head Six points out to him
that if he raises an alarm people will wonder how he knew what a cylon
device looks like. But considering he'd been taken on as scientific advisor,
and to investigate the ship's systems and computers and figure out what went
wrong, and considering the obvious nature of the cylon "thing", he could
have easily got around that by just peeking at the DRADIS, out of supposed
interest, then saying to Gaeta or someone, "what's that odd thing stuck to
it?"

I think the explanation for this is that, for a genius, Baltar's not
that bright.

Post by Ian B
I can't remember, but did we ever find out what the thing was, anyway?

Everyone asks, because it was covered in a deleted scene, and only
turned up again in a 'previously...' at the end of the year. It's a
Cylon transponder, used to signal that the ship carrying it is Cylon -
or at least that's how they modified it for Kara's Raider. No, no
reason was ever given as to why Doral planted it on Galactica.

Phil

[Dropping The Helicopter]

Ian B wrote:
[snip]

Post by Ian B
Well, if you want to start nitpicking...

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!

[DaffyDuck]

Post by p***@aol.com
No, we have no reason to believe that. What we know for sure is that
13th Tribe Cylons are identifiable as Cylons, and we also have a big
hint that Baltar's test identified Ellen as being Cylon.

Please list what that big hint would be.

Please list how there would be no reason to believe they test differently?

So far, the only concise 'cylon detector' is the Raider which
identified Anders, and broke off the attack (which is an interesting
question how that feature was built into Raiders, yet not the Seven).

Post by p***@aol.com
Why didn't Baltar go to Adama behind
Boomer's back? Why didn't he institute a system where multiple people
were trained to use the device, so that not only could people use it
in Baltar's absence, but the Cylons would have no way of knowing who
exposed them?

I would have figured that, watching the same series, the answer would
be obvious in Baltar's weasel-like personality.

None of the above points are a mistery to me.
--
Feed your Killfile:
Terry Austin (<***@myway.com>, <***@gmail.com>, et al);
***@gmail.com; catpandaddy <***@cat.pan.net>; Anybody:
<***@anywhere-anytime.com>; Dropping The Helicopter
<***@dagsjhdgja.org.com>; Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy;
The-Captain <Capt-***@hotmail.com>; Tim McGaughy <***@toast.net>;
atlas bugged <***@gmail.com>; Atlas Bugged
<***@atlasbugged.com>; Your Name <***@isp.com>; Slayah
<***@hellmouth.com>; Karl <***@yahoo.com>; Ron
<***@msn.com>; Brad Templeton <***@templetons.com>

[p***@aol.com]

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by p***@aol.com
No, we have no reason to believe that. What we know for sure is that
13th Tribe Cylons are identifiable as Cylons, and we also have a big
hint that Baltar's test identified Ellen as being Cylon.

Please list what that big hint would be.

I think I mentioned a post or two ago - Baltar's equivocation over
just what Ellen's result was.

Post by DaffyDuck
Please list how there would be no reason to believe they test differently?

Doesn't work that way. They're Cylons, and a cornerstone of this
series' mythos is that wherever they come from, Cylons are Cylons. The
default assumption is that they test as Cylons unless we learn
otherwise - if you tested a human from Caprica and a human from
Geminon, your default assumption would be that they both test human,
as they belong to the same species. We challenge that only insofar as
we have a reason to; and so far what we've been told is (a) the only
known Final Five Cylon to have been tested by Baltar may have tested
positive, and (b) 13th Tribe Cylons are identifiable as Cylons, both
from their remains and, to Raiders, retinal scans.

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by p***@aol.com
Why didn't Baltar go to Adama behind
Boomer's back? Why didn't he institute a system where multiple people
were trained to use the device, so that not only could people use it
in Baltar's absence, but the Cylons would have no way of knowing who
exposed them?

I would have figured that, watching the same series, the answer would
be obvious in Baltar's weasel-like personality.

No, doesn't wash I'm afraid. BSG is trying to be a show about real
people, not caricatures, and real people do the things they do for a
reason - not simply because they're "weasel-like", say. Baltar had a
very clearly-defined modus operandi - he was in it for self-
preservation, and while with the fleet his best option for self-
preservation was to make himself useful and allay suspicions. As
another issue, since he'd never reported a positive result with his
Cylon detector, why did anyone else assume it worked anyway? He needed
a successful detection to prove his value.

And most of the above issues aren't reliant on Baltar's personality
anyway. We don't know quite why, but we know that from early on no one
seemed to much like or trust Baltar - so why wasn't he made to test
himself in the first batch? Why wasn't Gaeta looking over his shoulder
when he tested people? In a fleet where anyone could be a Cylon, it
would be a basic precaution for there to be two testers monitoring
each other just in case. That, after all, is essentially why Gaeta was
assigned to him in the first place. And Cylon detection didn't become
any less vital after Baltar became vice-president - why wasn't someone
else put in charge of the programme in his absence? None of those have
anything to do with Baltar being "weasel-like".

What does bear on Baltar's personality is his disinterest in doing the
work in the first place - you'd think he'd leap at the idea of handing
over to someone else, so a screening program with other people doing
the screening would suit him well. And while we're on this subject,
let's address another issue - Baltar's amazing stupidity for a
"genius". As just one example, it wasn't until season 3 that he
wondered if he could be a Cylon, and then he had to be led by the hand
to that conclusion. It would have been rather more plausible for him
to come to this conclusion somewhat earlier and to test himself - so
he'd actually welcome being in an early batch.

Phil

[Ian B]

Post by p***@aol.com
What does bear on Baltar's personality is his disinterest in doing the
work in the first place - you'd think he'd leap at the idea of handing
over to someone else, so a screening program with other people doing
the screening would suit him well.

Unless he's trying to preserve his position of indispensibility. You can see
this behaviour e.g. in bureaucracies or corporate situations when people
resist offers of helper colleagues because it dilutes their unique position
even though it would lighten their workload. Baltar has a special position
in the fleet as science boffin, and he's also vain and insecure. If he hands
over his eversocomplicated job to others, he's demonstrating that anyone can
do it. In terms of self preservation in a precarious position, preserving an
aura of indispensibility is a good survival strategy. If Baltar maintains a
position as the only man who can run the cylon detector machine, that's in
his interests.

Post by p***@aol.com
And while we're on this subject,
let's address another issue - Baltar's amazing stupidity for a
"genius". As just one example, it wasn't until season 3 that he
wondered if he could be a Cylon, and then he had to be led by the hand
to that conclusion. It would have been rather more plausible for him
to come to this conclusion somewhat earlier and to test himself - so
he'd actually welcome being in an early batch.

There are different kinds of intelligence. People with prodigious IQs who
can contemplate string theory and stuff like that can often be socially
incompetent and "everyday stupid". Even Dungeons And Dragons has separate
Intelligence and Wisdom stats :oD That Baltar is good with technical geekery
doesn't mean he'd be a wise person or have everyday smarts. The type of
person who can understand mind bogglingly complex computer code but can't
understand other people, or indeed themself, is hardly unknown. Indeed, this
is one of the great errors of the technocratic philosophy. Anyone who
believes that experts should run the world has either never met any or is
that type of person who has a degree in advanced fluid dynamics but couldn't
run a bath.


Ian

[DaffyDuck]

Post by Ian B
Anyone who
believes that experts should run the world has either never met any or is
that type of person who has a degree in advanced fluid dynamics but couldn't
run a bath.

Well put!
--
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Post by DaffyDuck

Post by Ian B
Anyone who
believes that experts should run the world has either never met any or is
that type of person who has a degree in advanced fluid dynamics but couldn't
run a bath.

Well put!

Meh, nicely played perhaps, but not all that well put.

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAAAA!!!! I ZINGED YOU WITH
"NICELY PLAYED"!!!!!!!!

[SJohnson]

Post by p***@aol.com

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by p***@aol.com
No, we have no reason to believe that. What we know for sure is that
13th Tribe Cylons are identifiable as Cylons, and we also have a big
hint that Baltar's test identified Ellen as being Cylon.

Please list what that big hint would be.

I think I mentioned a post or two ago - Baltar's equivocation over
just what Ellen's result was.

Post by DaffyDuck
Please list how there would be no reason to believe they test differently?

Doesn't work that way. They're Cylons, and a cornerstone of this
series' mythos is that wherever they come from, Cylons are Cylons. The
default assumption is that they test as Cylons unless we learn
otherwise - if you tested a human from Caprica and a human from
Geminon, your default assumption would be that they both test human,
as they belong to the same species. We challenge that only insofar as
we have a reason to; and so far what we've been told is (a) the only
known Final Five Cylon to have been tested by Baltar may have tested
positive, and (b) 13th Tribe Cylons are identifiable as Cylons, both
from their remains and, to Raiders, retinal scans.

I like your line of thinking here.

Taken to an absurdist (or NOT) level, the words used to describe what
a human actually *is* in Colonial times may be a bit of an issue here
as well. The fact that every skeleton tested on Earth is identified as
"Cylon", while every Colonial humanoid is deemed "human", can be
subjected to intense scrutiny if one wants to. Y'know, "eye of the
beholder" and all that.. (Surely a well-used sci-fi saw, don't you
think?)

Post by p***@aol.com

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by p***@aol.com
Why didn't Baltar go to Adama behind
Boomer's back? Why didn't he institute a system where multiple people
were trained to use the device, so that not only could people use it
in Baltar's absence, but the Cylons would have no way of knowing who
exposed them?

I would have figured that, watching the same series, the answer would
be obvious in Baltar's weasel-like personality.

No, doesn't wash I'm afraid. BSG is trying to be a show about real
people, not caricatures, and real people do the things they do for a
reason - not simply because they're "weasel-like", say. Baltar had a
very clearly-defined modus operandi - he was in it for self-
preservation, and while with the fleet his best option for self-
preservation was to make himself useful and allay suspicions. As
another issue, since he'd never reported a positive result with his
Cylon detector, why did anyone else assume it worked anyway? He needed
a successful detection to prove his value.

My thinking, too.

Post by p***@aol.com
And most of the above issues aren't reliant on Baltar's personality
anyway. We don't know quite why, but we know that from early on no one
seemed to much like or trust Baltar - so why wasn't he made to test
himself in the first batch? Why wasn't Gaeta looking over his shoulder
when he tested people? In a fleet where anyone could be a Cylon, it
would be a basic precaution for there to be two testers monitoring
each other just in case. That, after all, is essentially why Gaeta was
assigned to him in the first place. And Cylon detection didn't become
any less vital after Baltar became vice-president - why wasn't someone
else put in charge of the programme in his absence? None of those have
anything to do with Baltar being "weasel-like".
What does bear on Baltar's personality is his disinterest in doing the
work in the first place - you'd think he'd leap at the idea of handing
over to someone else, so a screening program with other people doing
the screening would suit him well. And while we're on this subject,
let's address another issue - Baltar's amazing stupidity for a
"genius". As just one example, it wasn't until season 3 that he
wondered if he could be a Cylon, and then he had to be led by the hand
to that conclusion. It would have been rather more plausible for him
to come to this conclusion somewhat earlier and to test himself - so
he'd actually welcome being in an early batch.

I think Baltar subconsciously knows that there's something more
complex than the simple 'human v. cylon' tests he's been using for
years now. And after finding out for himself the condition that Earth
is in right now, Baltar's scientist *and* religious mind are firing
off many more questions- as opposed to answers- than he can currently
deal with.

One big question possibly being: If the entire 13th Colony is tested
to be Cylon, then what does it MEAN to *be* a Cylon? It simply just
can't mean "machine toasters" or "bio-mechanical toasters" only, can
it..?

Boy, wait until he finds out about Kara.

SJohnson
It's The *Suspense* That Kills Me! [a nod to DaffyDuck's namesake]

[DaffyDuck]

Post by SJohnson
It's The *Suspense* That Kills Me! [a nod to DaffyDuck's namesake]

Me bows!
--
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[p***@aol.com]

Post by SJohnson
One big question possibly being: If the entire 13th Colony is tested
to be Cylon, then what does it MEAN to *be* a Cylon? It simply just
can't mean "machine toasters"  or "bio-mechanical toasters" only, can
it..?

We don't know. "All of this has happened before, and all of this will
happen again" - so previous iterations of the Cylon race likely had
the same origin as ours, ultimately (i.e. created by humans). The
scrolls never said anything that we know about the racial identity of
the 13th Tribe - since no one in the Colonies would know what a Cylon
was until some four millennia later, it wouldn't have made sense to
mention it anyway.

Phil

[SJohnson]

Post by p***@aol.com

Post by SJohnson
One big question possibly being: If the entire 13th Colony is tested
to be Cylon, then what does it MEAN to *be* a Cylon? It simply just
can't mean "machine toasters"  or "bio-mechanical toasters" only, can
it..?

We don't know. "All of this has happened before, and all of this will
happen again" - so previous iterations of the Cylon race likely had
the same origin as ours, ultimately (i.e. created by humans). The
scrolls never said anything that we know about the racial identity of
the 13th Tribe - since no one in the Colonies would know what a Cylon
was until some four millennia later, it wouldn't have made sense to
mention it anyway.

Maybe I did a bad job of styling my response... but the "big question"
above (stated in the context of the original post) was not what *we*
fans are thinking in solving this sci-fi mystery, but one of the type
of questions that could be going through the fragile mind of one
genius Gaius Baltar-- especially after taking sooo many shots to both
his scientific comfort zone *and* his new-found faith exploring the
human (or Cylon?) condition...

SJohnson
Shoulda Stayed 'Wake In Dem Writin' Classes...

[DaffyDuck]

Post by p***@aol.com
Doesn't work that way. They're Cylons, and a cornerstone of this
series' mythos is that wherever they come from, Cylons are Cylons.

Only as far as *you* say - this appears to be counter to what the
series has established at this point in the game.

Post by p***@aol.com
(a) the only
known Final Five Cylon to have been tested by Baltar may have tested
positive, and

*may* = translation: "I don't really know, so I'm assuming something
that supports my argument"

Fact is, we don't know either way.

Post by p***@aol.com
And while we're on this subject,
let's address another issue - Baltar's amazing stupidity for a
"genius".

People who qualify as 'genius' usually aren't - they are just very good
at one tiny little thing. In Baltar's case, that was allegedly
'science' (and, obviously, banging as many chicks as he could). Being
qualified as a genius does not mean that he is adept at thinking
strategically, or in any other practical manner.
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[p***@aol.com]

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by p***@aol.com
Doesn't work that way. They're Cylons, and a cornerstone of this
series' mythos is that wherever they come from, Cylons are Cylons.

Only as far as *you* say - this appears to be counter to what the
series has established at this point in the game.

Please list the evidence for this assertion. Even if, as Brad says,
they are a "fundamentally different" type of Cylon, Centurions are a
fundamentally different type of Cylon from skinjobs. Yet both are
Cylons. By saying "a fundamentally different type of Cylon" the
writers are making it clear that they are, in fact, Cylons.

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by p***@aol.com
(a) the only
known Final Five Cylon to have been tested by Baltar may have tested
positive, and

*may* = translation: "I don't really know, so I'm assuming something
that supports my argument"
Fact is, we don't know either way.

Precisely the point - we have no way of knowing that Final Five Cylons
*don't* test as Cylons and, knowing as we do that they're Cylons, we
have no reason for presuming that they don't. Brad's point about
Baltar apparently being unaware of any of the Final Five is the best
we have to go on, but even that's ambiguous.

Phil

[DaffyDuck]

Post by p***@aol.com

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by p***@aol.com
Doesn't work that way. They're Cylons, and a cornerstone of this
series' mythos is that wherever they come from, Cylons are Cylons.

Only as far as *you* say - this appears to be counter to what the
series has established at this point in the game.

Please list the evidence for this assertion. Even if, as Brad says,
they are a "fundamentally different" type of Cylon, Centurions are a
fundamentally different type of Cylon from skinjobs. Yet both are
Cylons. By saying "a fundamentally different type of Cylon" the
writers are making it clear that they are, in fact, Cylons.

Actually, on second thought - I agree with you. Seeing as how the
Raiders were able to establish Anders' identity, and the Seven were
able to identify Earth ones as 'Cylon', there appears to at least be
some genetic component that is common to all listed (including the list
of Base ships, Centurios, and Raiders I listed).

Albeit, I wonder if they will establish that all Cylons always had
biological components (in Caprica), or if there actually were pure tin
cans at one point, and they evolved to biological components?
--
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[Tony Vickers]

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by p***@aol.com

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by p***@aol.com
Doesn't work that way. They're Cylons, and a cornerstone of this
series' mythos is that wherever they come from, Cylons are Cylons.

Only as far as *you* say - this appears to be counter to what the
series has established at this point in the game.

Please list the evidence for this assertion. Even if, as Brad says,
they are a "fundamentally different" type of Cylon, Centurions are a
fundamentally different type of Cylon from skinjobs. Yet both are
Cylons. By saying "a fundamentally different type of Cylon" the
writers are making it clear that they are, in fact, Cylons.

Actually, on second thought - I agree with you. Seeing as how the
Raiders were able to establish Anders' identity, and the Seven were able
to identify Earth ones as 'Cylon', there appears to at least be some
genetic component that is common to all listed (including the list of
Base ships, Centurios, and Raiders I listed).
Albeit, I wonder if they will establish that all Cylons always had
biological components (in Caprica), or if there actually were pure tin
cans at one point, and they evolved to biological components?

Maybe it's like the Daleks from Dr Who. The forebears of the Daleks were
the Kaleds who were mutated and put in armored "cans" by Davros. The
Kaleds who didn't make the cut continued on Skaaro and mutated
naturally. Reference: Tom Baker episode, "Destiny of the Daleks" with
the Movellans.

We haven't seen a Centurion dissected but it could be a brain with a
metal body. I think the Raiders were of a similar but different design idea.

[Brad Templeton]

Post by p***@aol.com

Post by DaffyDuck
The Seven test differently than the Five.

No, we have no reason to believe that. What we know for sure is that
13th Tribe Cylons are identifiable as Cylons, and we also have a big

Strictly, we have no reason to assume anything is the same for the 7 as
the 5. There is some connection -- the 7 were given programming to
know the 5 existed but not to think of them -- but that is the only
similarity we have seen between the 7 and the 5. Until last week
there was not a single thing they had in common demonstrated on the
show. Last week we saw they once lived on the 13th colony, among
other people whom Cylon tests show to be Cylons. This suggests, but
does not prove, that they were similar technology to those of the 13th
colony but that could easily end up not true.

Other than the fact that they both call themselves Cylons, you can
assume nothing about one from what you learn about the other. I am
sure there will be more things in common revealed, but as yet they
are not revealed.

This was the mistake a lot of people made that made them shocked
when Tigh and the rest were revealed. They kept assuming some
commonality. People were insisting it must be a trick until well
into the 4th season.

Even today, the use of the same term makes the fleet act like they are
similar. The 5 fought for the colonies in both Cylon wars. Their
biology, history, technology and agenda are different, and we don't yet
know what they truly have in common.

[p***@aol.com]

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by p***@aol.com

Post by DaffyDuck
The Seven test differently than the Five.

No, we have no reason to believe that. What we know for sure is that
13th Tribe Cylons are identifiable as Cylons, and we also have a big

Strictly, we have no reason to assume anything is the same for the 7 as
the 5.

A Cylon is a Cylon. If they'd run tests and identified the 13th Tribe
as humans, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we? We
wouldn't be asking "are there two types of human/is what they mean by
human the same as what the Colonials mean by human?" A Cylon is a
Cylon has been a motif of the show running through the series - other
characters treat them as Cylons because they *are* Cylons. Where we're
meant to see them making mistakes is in assuming Cylon = evil/
untrustworthy, not in assuming Cylon = Cylon. "Cylons aren't Cylons"
or "Cylon just means artificial" are simply your inventions.

  There is some connection -- the 7 were given programming to

Post by Brad Templeton
know the 5 existed but not to think of them -- but that is the only
similarity we have seen between the 7 and the 5.     Until last week
there was not a single thing they had in common demonstrated on the
show.    Last week we saw they once lived on the 13th colony, among
other people whom Cylon tests show to be Cylons.   This suggests, but
does not prove, that they were similar technology to those of the 13th
colony but that could easily end up not true.

This is a classic case of overthinking, There are points when you have
to step back, remember this is a TV show rather than a real universe,
and ask yourself "What are the writers trying to tell us at this point
in the story?" From the show's, and the writers' perspective, Cylons
are Cylons. They may have factions, and they may have different
agendas, just as the human characters do - but a Cylon is a Cylon and
a human is a human. What works for one works for all. When we're told,
for instance, that Cottle can tell a Cylon and clears Kara, this is
the writers telling us (once again) that Kara isn't a Cylon. When
Baltar tells Roslin he's not a Cylon, that too is the writers directly
telling us something. And when the writers tell us the 13th Tribe are
Cylons, they aren't giving us wriggle room to say "ah, but 13th Tribe
Cylons are something different from the way the series has used the
word "Cylon" since time immemorial". This series has been built on
equivocation; things that characters deliberately don't ask, answers
we are deliberately not given. When we are given answers directly, the
writers are telling us "This is so". Yes, the 13th Tribe Cylons were
identified as Cylons using Cylon kit - that's because Baltar doesn't
have a Cylon detector anymore and Cottle can only work with blood
(which the bones don't have). Not because it's beyond the Colonials'
ability to distinguish between two types of Cylons.

Post by Brad Templeton
This was the mistake a lot of people made that made them shocked
when Tigh and the rest were revealed.   They kept assuming some
commonality.  People were insisting it must be a trick until well
into the 4th season.
Even today, the use of the same term makes the fleet act like they are
similar.  The 5 fought for the colonies in both Cylon wars.

The Five thought they were human in both Cylon wars (and, as a minor
point, Ellen and Tory did no fighting for anyone, and only Tigh of the
others was around in the first Cylon war that we know of - we know
they've been revived somehow at this point in time, but don't know
they have a continuous history of existence between the destruction of
Earth and now). Boomer fought with the fleet plenty of times.

Phil

[Brad Templeton]

Post by p***@aol.com
A Cylon is a Cylon. If they'd run tests and identified the 13th Tribe

No. That's been the message ever since they came up with the final
5 plot. A Cylon is not a Cylon. There are (at least) two very
different kinds. They make that clear in the show, they make that
clear in their communications with fans.

Post by p***@aol.com
A Cylon is a
Cylon has been a motif of the show running through the series - other

Not the show I've been watching. Quite the reverse.

Post by p***@aol.com
This is a classic case of overthinking, There are points when you have
to step back, remember this is a TV show rather than a real universe,
and ask yourself "What are the writers trying to tell us at this point
in the story?" From the show's, and the writers' perspective, Cylons

Right. That's why when all the producers and writers interviewed told
us, "These are a _fumandmentally_ different type of Cylon" it confirmed
what the show was telling us, that a Cylon is not a Cylon.

Post by p***@aol.com
for instance, that Cottle can tell a Cylon and clears Kara, this is
the writers telling us (once again) that Kara isn't a Cylon. When

The human tests did not detect the final 5. That's clear, as I posted
earlier, because Baltar asks #3, "Why have I only seen 7 types?" If
Baltar's test revealed the 5, he would not have asked that.

We don't know if the Cylon's own tests would have detected the 5
or not. We don't know if Baltar's tests would have detected the
13th tribers.

Post by p***@aol.com
we are deliberately not given. When we are given answers directly, the
writers are telling us "This is so". Yes, the 13th Tribe Cylons were

Yes, but what the writers are telling us -- explicitly in interviews
as well as in the show is not what you are saying.

The point is that we have seen _no_ similarity yet between the F5
and the 7. Tell me where, in the show, that any connection, let alone
similarity, is made between the 7 and the 5, except for:

a) The 7 have programming to know that there are 5, and to not
think of them.

b) The raiders have programming to not attack the 5 (once active)

c) The 7 can see the 5 in the space between life an death, and in
2 instances, in visions of the opera house.

d) The 5 lived among ancient Cylons who test as Cylon on Six's
detector.

Compare that with a score of ways that they are, as the writers
say, fundamentally different, and I can't see what makes you
think they are the same.

[DaffyDuck]

Post by p***@aol.com
A Cylon is a
Cylon has been a motif of the show running through the series - other
characters treat them as Cylons because they *are* Cylons.

So, I'm confused - which ones do you mean:

- early Centurion 'toasters'?
- second generation toasters (as seen in Razor)
- First Hybrids
- Current Centurions 'toasters'
- Current skin jobs (The Seven)
- The Final Five
- Raiders (also sentient Cylons)
- Heavy Raiders
- Base ships
- current generation Hybrids.

So, these are all 'Cylons' then... no difference?
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<***@hellmouth.com>; Karl <***@yahoo.com>; Ron
<***@msn.com>; Brad Templeton <***@templetons.com>

[RT]

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Cylon_detector
...
The Cylon detector does work. It confirms that Sharon Valerii is indeed a
Cylon — a fact that Baltar hides from Valerii, fearing what her Cylon persona
would do were he to tell her. After discovering that it would be easier for
Baltar to make all the results "green", Baltar alters the device to mimic his
method of thinking. However, after Sharon Valerii shoots Commander Adama,
everyone believes the Cylon detector to be a failure, thinking that it didn't
pick up her Cylon nature.
...
Its effectiveness in detecting the "fundamentally different" Final Five is
unknown, since it is not known whether or not not Baltar's detector was ever
used to test any of the revealed Five.
...

[DaffyDuck]

Post by RT
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Cylon_detector
...
The Cylon detector does work. It confirms that Sharon Valerii is indeed a
Cylon — a fact that Baltar hides from Valerii, fearing what her Cylon persona
would do were he to tell her. After discovering that it would be easier for
Baltar to make all the results "green", Baltar alters the device to mimic his
method of thinking. However, after Sharon Valerii shoots Commander Adama,
everyone believes the Cylon detector to be a failure, thinking that it didn't
pick up her Cylon nature.
...
Its effectiveness in detecting the "fundamentally different" Final Five is
unknown, since it is not known whether or not not Baltar's detector was ever
used to test any of the revealed Five.
...

Some people simply don't want to take reality into consideration in
favor of their pet theories...
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[p***@aol.com]

Post by RT
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Cylon_detector
...
The Cylon detector does work. It confirms that Sharon Valerii is indeed a
Cylon — a fact that Baltar hides from Valerii, fearing what her Cylon persona
would do were he to tell her. After discovering that it would be easier for
Baltar to make all the results "green", Baltar alters the device to mimic his
method of thinking. However, after Sharon Valerii shoots Commander Adama,
everyone believes the Cylon detector to be a failure, thinking that it didn't
pick up her Cylon nature.

Except that Baltar convinces Tigh that the detector does work, and
that it failed to pick up Boomer because she was just a beta test
subject. We know Tigh believed him since he then sends Baltar to test
Tyrol (which Baltar does not, in fact, do).

Post by RT
Its effectiveness in detecting the "fundamentally different" Final Five is
unknown, since it is not known whether or not not Baltar's detector was ever
used to test any of the revealed Five.

No, it's known he tested Ellen - hence the thread title. And he had
months to do his tests, and Tigh told us that multiple people had been
tested ("no one's results are definitive?"), so it makes very little
sense that he wouldn't have tested Tigh or Tyrol (we know for a fact
that he didn't test Tyrol, but that brings me back to my initial point
- that the failure to detect the Final Five is the result of sloppy
plotting, not a retrospective decision that they don't test as Cylon).

Phil

[DaffyDuck]

Post by p***@aol.com
No, it's known he tested Ellen - hence the thread title. And he had
months to do his tests, and Tigh told us that multiple people had been
tested ("no one's results are definitive?"), so it makes very little
sense that he wouldn't have tested Tigh or Tyrol (we know for a fact
that he didn't test Tyrol, but that brings me back to my initial point
- that the failure to detect the Final Five is the result of sloppy
plotting, not a retrospective decision that they don't test as Cylon).

Didn't he tell Head Six that he rigged the detector to let EVERYONE pass?
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[Brad Templeton]

Post by p***@aol.com

Post by RT
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Cylon_detector
...
The Cylon detector does work. It confirms that Sharon Valerii is indeed a
Cylon — a fact that Baltar hides from Valerii, fearing what her Cylon persona
would do were he to tell her. After discovering that it would be easier for
Baltar to make all the results "green", Baltar alters the device to mimic his
method of thinking. However, after Sharon Valerii shoots Commander Adama,
everyone believes the Cylon detector to be a failure, thinking that it didn't
pick up her Cylon nature.

Except that Baltar convinces Tigh that the detector does work, and
that it failed to pick up Boomer because she was just a beta test
subject. We know Tigh believed him since he then sends Baltar to test
Tyrol (which Baltar does not, in fact, do).

Post by RT
Its effectiveness in detecting the "fundamentally different" Final Five is
unknown, since it is not known whether or not not Baltar's detector was ever
used to test any of the revealed Five.

No, it's known he tested Ellen - hence the thread title. And he had
months to do his tests, and Tigh told us that multiple people had been
tested ("no one's results are definitive?"), so it makes very little
sense that he wouldn't have tested Tigh or Tyrol (we know for a fact
that he didn't test Tyrol, but that brings me back to my initial point
- that the failure to detect the Final Five is the result of sloppy
plotting, not a retrospective decision that they don't test as Cylon).
Phil

I would not agree. As many people keep pointing out, that there were
12 humanoid models living among the humans was very well established
from the start. The writers certainly planned to have some more
hidden Cylon agents -- it was always a big deal to have those -- so
I have to believe they had some vague ideas in their minds that for
some reason the detector would not spot the remaining ones. Ellen
they dealt with ambiguously as she was the only one they had nailed down.
They had not decided how these Cylons would be different until season
3, but I have to expect they planned to have a reason why they were not
detected by the detector -- including writing that Baltar hid the
information.

However, once they decided the final 5 plot, they also decided that
Baltar did not hide the information, and used him to be the one to
prompt the plot by asking about the other 5 on board the base ship.

[p***@aol.com]

Post by DaffyDuck

Post by p***@aol.com
A Cylon is a
Cylon has been a motif of the show running through the series - other
characters treat them as Cylons because they *are* Cylons.

- early Centurion 'toasters'?
- second generation toasters (as seen in Razor)
- First Hybrids
- Current Centurions 'toasters'
- Current skin jobs (The Seven)
- The Final Five
- Raiders (also sentient Cylons)
- Heavy Raiders
- Base ships
- current generation Hybrids.
So, these are all 'Cylons' then... no difference?

Thanks for making my point. Yes, they are all Cylons. And yes, they
are different 'forms' of Cylon - BUT THEY ARE ALL CYLON. And that's
the critical point in this context. Would you assume, by default, that
if a Centurion was tested using Baltar's detector, that it wouldn't
test as a Cylon? If not, where is your basis for assuming the same
about the Final Five?

Phil

[Brad Templeton]

Post by p***@aol.com

Post by DaffyDuck
- early Centurion 'toasters'?
- second generation toasters (as seen in Razor)
- First Hybrids
- Current Centurions 'toasters'
- Current skin jobs (The Seven)
- The Final Five
- Raiders (also sentient Cylons)
- Heavy Raiders
- Base ships
- current generation Hybrids.
So, these are all 'Cylons' then... no difference?

Thanks for making my point. Yes, they are all Cylons. And yes, they
are different 'forms' of Cylon - BUT THEY ARE ALL CYLON. And that's
the critical point in this context. Would you assume, by default, that
if a Centurion was tested using Baltar's detector, that it wouldn't
test as a Cylon? If not, where is your basis for assuming the same
about the Final Five?

Correct. I think if you put a sample from the centurion into
Baltar's detector it would not detect as Cylon. Why would it?
If it said anything it would say, "I see pieces of metal."

[Ian B]

In article

Post by p***@aol.com

Post by DaffyDuck
- early Centurion 'toasters'?
- second generation toasters (as seen in Razor)
- First Hybrids
- Current Centurions 'toasters'
- Current skin jobs (The Seven)
- The Final Five
- Raiders (also sentient Cylons)
- Heavy Raiders
- Base ships
- current generation Hybrids.
So, these are all 'Cylons' then... no difference?

Thanks for making my point. Yes, they are all Cylons. And yes, they
are different 'forms' of Cylon - BUT THEY ARE ALL CYLON. And that's
the critical point in this context. Would you assume, by default,
that if a Centurion was tested using Baltar's detector, that it
wouldn't test as a Cylon? If not, where is your basis for assuming
the same about the Final Five?

Correct. I think if you put a sample from the centurion into
Baltar's detector it would not detect as Cylon. Why would it?
If it said anything it would say, "I see pieces of metal."

Not sure about that. The raiders are internally biological, it seems likely
the modern centurions use the same technology as well. As do the hybrids. So
they probably all would test as "cylon". The test detects particular
characteristics of cylon biotechnology- as Six confirmed when she said
"using our protocols" before Baltar interrupted.

All the types of cylon we've seen have been developed since the first Cylon
war. In the miniseries the viper pilots were surprised that there weren't
any cylon (centurions) flying the raiders- that they fly themselves. Whether
the original (first war) cylons had any biotechnology included we don't
know, although they did look just like robots. So whether humans developed
that cylon biotechnology with its distinctive signature, or whether the
cylons developed it themselves during the experiments seen in Razor we can't
be sure.

Anyway, the point is it's a distinctive signature special to Cylons. An
analogy would be a test for which software had been written in say Java,
given a variety of software of unknown authorship to test. The java programs
have certain constructs from compilation that act as a signature, kind of
thing. This is just an analogy BTW, I know sod all about Java programming,
so if in fact programmes compiled from Java are undetectable from those
compiled from C# I apologise for a crap analogy in advance.

The point is, or was anyway some way back up the thread(s), that "cylon"
isn't a synonym for "artificial", it's a description of a particular type of
artificial. The skeletons on "Earth" test as Cylon because they have that
unique signature, and so would the Final Five, because they're Cylons, not
just any old type of artificial life form.


Ian

[Brad Templeton]

Post by Ian B
Not sure about that. The raiders are internally biological, it seems likely
the modern centurions use the same technology as well. As do the hybrids. So
they probably all would test as "cylon". The test detects particular
characteristics of cylon biotechnology- as Six confirmed when she said
"using our protocols" before Baltar interrupted.

We don't know what's inside them. All we're told about them is
"those models are still around, they have their uses" and they
have/had inhibitors which could be removed. (As opposed to
"lobotomizing" for raiders.)

What about the Guardians? Are they Cylons? They are about as
Cylon as you can get by all the definitions. As far as we
know they are all robot.

Post by Ian B
Anyway, the point is it's a distinctive signature special to Cylons. An

Well, don't get me wrong, I think there are connections between the
various and many types of Cylons, all dating back to something invented
long ago on Earth. However, I don't know that for sure, and more to
the point the _characters_ don't know that at all. The characters are
still trying to get their heads around the idea that they didn't invent
the Cylons 50 years ago. To the characters, that's what Cylon meant --
those robots they made 50 years ago.

But right now neither they, nor we, know what the connection is. We
know there's a connection between the 13th tribe Cylons and the new
models, but that's about it.

[Ian B]

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B
Not sure about that. The raiders are internally biological, it seems
likely the modern centurions use the same technology as well. As do
the hybrids. So they probably all would test as "cylon". The test
detects particular characteristics of cylon biotechnology- as Six
confirmed when she said "using our protocols" before Baltar
interrupted.

We don't know what's inside them. All we're told about them is
"those models are still around, they have their uses" and they
have/had inhibitors which could be removed. (As opposed to
"lobotomizing" for raiders.)
What about the Guardians? Are they Cylons? They are about as
Cylon as you can get by all the definitions. As far as we
know they are all robot.

Guardians of what? I have no recollection of anything called specifically
"guardians" in the series.


Ian

[Ian B]

Post by Ian B

Post by Brad Templeton

Post by Ian B
Not sure about that. The raiders are internally biological, it seems
likely the modern centurions use the same technology as well. As do
the hybrids. So they probably all would test as "cylon". The test
detects particular characteristics of cylon biotechnology- as Six
confirmed when she said "using our protocols" before Baltar
interrupted.

We don't know what's inside them. All we're told about them is
"those models are still around, they have their uses" and they
have/had inhibitors which could be removed. (As opposed to
"lobotomizing" for raiders.)
What about the Guardians? Are they Cylons? They are about as
Cylon as you can get by all the definitions. As far as we
know they are all robot.

Guardians of what? I have no recollection of anything called
specifically "guardians" in the series.

Okay, googled guardians and they're just the original centurions in Razor.
Had forgotten that, or not picked it up in the first place.

Anyway, they're robots apparently.

Which isn't any particular problem as far as our debate goes. The term
"cylon" originally meant the robots that rebelled. It then came to mean
their descendant models, which are biological, as well. In terms of
*biological matter* there is clearly a distinction in the series between
"cylon" biological matter, and "human" biological matter.

Which is the point.


Ian

[Tim McGaughy]

Post by JGB
Remember way back when Boomer didn't even know yet she was a cylon and
Baltar was building a cylon detector? He used it on her and it was
positive but, after talking it over with the phantom 6, he decided to
keep his mouth shut. Then Ellen shows up and they immediately make
her take the test because they suspect she is not really Ellen but a
cylon lookalike. She passed that test. What? The damned thing
doesn't work on the 5? Different than the other 7?

I seem to remember that after Boomer got detected, Baltar decided he
couldn't afford to let the test detect ANYONE, since that would make
life a bit more dangerous for him.

Ellen could easily have tripped the test, had it not already been
sabotaged by its inventor. We'll never know.

[p***@aol.com]

Post by Tim McGaughy

Post by JGB
Remember way back when Boomer didn't even know yet she was a cylon and
Baltar was building a cylon detector?  He used it on her and it was
positive but, after talking it over with the phantom 6, he decided to
keep his mouth shut.  Then Ellen shows up and they immediately make
her take the test because they suspect she is not really Ellen but a
cylon lookalike.  She passed that test.  What?  The damned thing
doesn't work on the 5?  Different than the other 7?

I seem to remember that after Boomer got detected, Baltar decided he
couldn't afford to let the test detect ANYONE, since that would make
life a bit more dangerous for him.
Ellen could easily have tripped the test, had it not already been
sabotaged by its inventor. We'll never know.

I don't think he sabotaged it so that it turned everyone green - he
changed it on a case-by-case basis, just as he did with Boomer. His
line at the end of "Tigh Me Up..." makes it clear he knows what the
test said about Ellen, so plainly it was still giving him the right
result. Baltar, after all, wanted to know who was a Cylon and who
wasn't.

Phil

[Karl]

Post by JGB
Remember way back when Boomer didn't even know yet she was a cylon and
Baltar was building a cylon detector? He used it on her and it was
positive but, after talking it over with the phantom 6, he decided to
keep his mouth shut. Then Ellen shows up and they immediately make
her take the test because they suspect she is not really Ellen but a
cylon lookalike. She passed that test. What? The damned thing
doesn't work on the 5? Different than the other 7?

You have to remember the Cylon detectors ONLY work on people the "WRITERS"
know are Cylons.

Sorry I couldn't resist that.

Actually you have a point, I guess at that point they really hadn't figured
who all the Cylons were and you spotted a continuity issue.