2000 years since Kobol's fall.

[Arthur Hansen]

I have the hardest time understanding this and how it can relate to
Earth Human history. Right now, we can track our "pre" history back
about 10,000 years. And our gene history even further back (ie. homo
sapien developed on Earth.)

So we have two really weird quandries to address. Humans came from
Earth (or was seeded here far enough back that we look like a native
organism) and that two thousand years.

Two thousand years is very well documented (as ancient history goes) so
the possibility of us all hopping off a ship from Kobol seems unlikely.

Years aren't the same? The colonists to Earth were thrown far further
into the past?

Hmm....

[MSwanberg]

Just a cheesy guess here...

I always thought it odd that they would know so much about the
wherabouts (yet not everything) and the fate of the "lost" Thirteenth
Tribe.

I would postulate that the Earth settlers left Kobol far before the
remaining 12 tribes did. Then, somewhere in that lost time (8,000
years or so?), some 13th tribespersons returned to Kobol.

Does that make any sense?

Of course, there's nothing that states that the events in the show are
concurrent with present day. It could be "a long time ago in a star
system far far away."

-Mike

[KenH]

I always thought it odd that they knew the name of the planet the 13th
colony landed on but not where it was also.

This is one of those little quarks from the original series. Back in
the 70's the thought that earth had been visited by ancient astronauts
was popular. Viper pilots back then wore helmets like the Egyptian
Sphinks (which always wobbled during take-off).

I'm assuming one suggestion is that the 13th colony lost contact, fell
into decline, and "forgot" earlier knowledge. Kinda like an early
dark-ages. But yea, there is a big gray area with that stuff. One of
many (don't get me started). But I like it anyway.

[Stephen M. Adams]

Post by KenH
I always thought it odd that they knew the name of the planet the 13th
colony landed on but not where it was also.

How long did it take us to actually find Troy again? And that was here
on earth! :-)

Post by KenH
This is one of those little quarks from the original series. Back in
the 70's the thought that earth had been visited by ancient astronauts
was popular. Viper pilots back then wore helmets like the Egyptian
Sphinks (which always wobbled during take-off).

Erich von Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods" was published in 1970. I
remember seeing "In Search of" cover this topic, too. Then, of course,
we get BSG-TOS: "There are those who believe that life here, began out
there, far across the universe. Tribes of humans that may have been
the forefathers of the Egyptians, Toltecs and Mayans..."

It also fits in with the pseudo-Mormon theology of TOS.

Post by KenH
I'm assuming one suggestion is that the 13th colony lost contact, fell
into decline, and "forgot" earlier knowledge. Kinda like an early
dark-ages. But yea, there is a big gray area with that stuff. One of
many (don't get me started). But I like it anyway.

If you don't have some kind of FTL communications, I can see how one
could easily lose contact...

-Stephen

[GMAN]

Post by Stephen M. Adams

Post by KenH
I always thought it odd that they knew the name of the planet the 13th
colony landed on but not where it was also.

How long did it take us to actually find Troy again? And that was here
on earth! :-)

Post by KenH
This is one of those little quarks from the original series. Back in
the 70's the thought that earth had been visited by ancient astronauts
was popular. Viper pilots back then wore helmets like the Egyptian
Sphinks (which always wobbled during take-off).

Erich von Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods" was published in 1970. I
remember seeing "In Search of" cover this topic, too. Then, of course,
we get BSG-TOS: "There are those who believe that life here, began out
there, far across the universe. Tribes of humans that may have been
the forefathers of the Egyptians, Toltecs and Mayans..."
It also fits in with the pseudo-Mormon theology of TOS.

That should be pseudo Judean-Mormom- theology. It has to do with the lost
tribes of israel in a sence.

Post by Stephen M. Adams

Post by KenH
I'm assuming one suggestion is that the 13th colony lost contact, fell
into decline, and "forgot" earlier knowledge. Kinda like an early
dark-ages. But yea, there is a big gray area with that stuff. One of
many (don't get me started). But I like it anyway.

If you don't have some kind of FTL communications, I can see how one
could easily lose contact...
-Stephen

[Andy Blanchard]

Post by MSwanberg
Just a cheesy guess here...
I always thought it odd that they would know so much about the
wherabouts (yet not everything) and the fate of the "lost" Thirteenth
Tribe.
I would postulate that the Earth settlers left Kobol far before the
remaining 12 tribes did. Then, somewhere in that lost time (8,000
years or so?), some 13th tribespersons returned to Kobol.

That's pretty much my understanding based on the few references we
have from the series. My timeline would run as follows (with a few
digressions):

1) Many thousands of years before the events of the series, the
thirteenth tribe leaves Kobol and colonises Earth. Presumably
there was some motivation for this, but if Galactica is "Exodus",
then I'd draw a parallel with the story of Joseph with members of
the thirteenth tribe being betrayed by their brethen, end up on
Earth, and then some return in a prodigal son role to design some
new flags. But I'm getting ahead of myself...

[Time passes]

2) There is a disaster or conflict of some kind on Earth (the fall of
Atlantis perhaps?) and the survivors are thrown into a dark ages
utterly losing all "modern" technology because we have no evidence
of any advanced such advanced civilisation. The few survivors try
to rebuild their civilisation in Greece, Egypt etc.

[Time passes]

3) Some of the colonists/survivors return to Kobol, the map room is
built, the scrolls of Pythia and other documents written, and the
twelve tribes are so impressed that they incorporate the signs of
our zodiac onto their flags, one per tribe.

[Or maybe the other way around on #2 and #3; it doesn't really matter.
More time passes, perhaps not all that much if the "Gods" are upset at
the resulting hubris and decide to serve an eviction notice, but
perhaps quite a bit if there is a parallel with the enslavement of the
Israelites.]

4) Fall of Kobol and the founding of the "Twelve Colonies". This may
also be where the flags got designed; in honor of the first of the
tribes to prove that colonisation of another world was possible.

[Two thousand or so more years pass]

5) The events of "Battlestar Galactica"

The best bit is that only #2 is pinned to a specific point in Earth's
history, so it's entirely possible that the series could be happening
in our past, present or future. It could even be *our* descendents
that return to Kobol, build the map room and write the scrolls, or
just a lone astronaut, thrown out of orbit and frozen for five hundred
years... Oh, wait... wrong '80s show, my bad. ;)

Post by MSwanberg
Of course, there's nothing that states that the events in the show are
concurrent with present day. It could be "a long time ago in a star
system far far away."

Or there's that.

Andy

[Arthur Hansen]

The only problem is that 13th tribe indicates that it is the last
colony (as we've only been told of the "original" 12 and then the
"13th" colony.

We are given the impression that the 12 tribes (and Kobol too) are
older (and far older in Kobol's case.) And that it is probably around
2000 years since this all happened.

10,000+ year history on Earth makes that really tough to reconcile.

[Jeff Jenson]

Post by Arthur Hansen
The only problem is that 13th tribe indicates that it is the last
colony (as we've only been told of the "original" 12 and then the
"13th" colony.
We are given the impression that the 12 tribes (and Kobol too) are
older (and far older in Kobol's case.) And that it is probably around
2000 years since this all happened.
10,000+ year history on Earth makes that really tough to reconcile.

You are thinking that Battlestar Galactica is happening right now
instead of a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.

[Ryan Case]

Post by Arthur Hansen
I have the hardest time understanding this and how it can relate to
Earth Human history. Right now, we can track our "pre" history back
about 10,000 years. And our gene history even further back (ie. homo
sapien developed on Earth.)
So we have two really weird quandries to address. Humans came from
Earth (or was seeded here far enough back that we look like a native
organism) and that two thousand years.
Two thousand years is very well documented (as ancient history goes) so
the possibility of us all hopping off a ship from Kobol seems unlikely.
Years aren't the same? The colonists to Earth were thrown far further
into the past?
Hmm....

Since you bring it up, I guess that this raises a couple of questions
for me too.

Has their tech stagnated in that 2000 years? If not one would have to
believe that ftl drives are somewhat new, and that the ships sent to
seed the 13 colonies were not thusly equipped. That would mean that they
are either relatively close to earth, or some sort of cryogenic (sp?)
system was employed for the journey.

I suppose that a side effect of the css could have been a memory loss
for the passengers. But the amnesia thing always seems such a cheesy cop
out to me.

I suppose that we could take earth legend and make them the Atlantians
too? I mean they were an advanced civilization with all kinds of tech,
no? That way the destruction of Atlantis would have taken the knowledge
of how they got here with it, right?


Also, why can't they now, having the information that they do about the
local of earth just jump there?

I love the series and don't generally think about any of these things,
but since there is the "what about" game goin on in the group I thought
that I would bring them up to get others' thoughts on them.

Cheers,

Ryan

[geoffers]

Post by Ryan Case
I suppose that we could take earth legend and make them the Atlantians
too? I mean they were an advanced civilization with all kinds of tech, no?
That way the destruction of Atlantis would have taken the knowledge of how
they got here with it, right?
Also, why can't they now, having the information that they do about the
local of earth just jump there?

this is easy enough to answer. they wouldn't want to go straight there,
cause the cylon war machine that is following them would nuke the place....
unless earth has already been turned into the cylon homeworld... :)

[Ryan Case]

Post by geoffers

Post by Ryan Case
I suppose that we could take earth legend and make them the Atlantians
too? I mean they were an advanced civilization with all kinds of tech, no?
That way the destruction of Atlantis would have taken the knowledge of how
they got here with it, right?
Also, why can't they now, having the information that they do about the
local of earth just jump there?

this is easy enough to answer. they wouldn't want to go straight there,
cause the cylon war machine that is following them would nuke the place....
unless earth has already been turned into the cylon homeworld... :)

What keeps them from believing that their bretheren on earth developed,
tech wise, on the same pace with them? Then they would think that there
is an armada waiting to help them destroy the Cylons once and for good.







Don't really think this, so much as advocating for the devil in order to
keep the discussion moving.

[KenH]

Humans on the 12 colonies barely kept up tech wise with an enemy they
built. What hope is there that the 13th colony is any better.

[Ryan Case]

Post by KenH
Humans on the 12 colonies barely kept up tech wise with an enemy they
built. What hope is there that the 13th colony is any better.

If the pegasus is doing hit missions and keeping the cylons on the run,
would they need to be better? or would equal be good enough?

Remember that the BSG was a relic of sorts with old retired fighters put
on board for a ceremony and computer systems that hadn't been upgraded.
We don't know that the people of the other twelve colonies were behind
or barely kept up with the Cylons as the Gal.. isn't a representative
sample of the colonies current tech.

Still just talking here.

And this is obviously working under the premise that this takes place in
our future as the cylons would own us with no effort in our current
state. Hell we'd probably kill ourselves off fighting over how to defend
against them.

Ryan

[KenH]

Oh, don't get me started on the plot holes in this show. I still don't
get why Cylon's, with superior technology, numbers, resources, and
intelligence haven't wiped out the humans yet. Wars have been won
easily here on Earth with half those advantages.

The writers really need to give the Cylons SOME kind of weakness or the
humans SOME strength.

[Russ]

Post by KenH
Oh, don't get me started on the plot holes in this show. I still don't
get why Cylon's, with superior technology, numbers, resources, and
intelligence haven't wiped out the humans yet. Wars have been won
easily here on Earth with half those advantages.

Er...ahem...Vietnam..Iraq...

Russ

[KenH]

Not to get off track, but in Vietnam the US never lost a battle. It
lost because:

1. It never had an objective - the most important thing in a war since
the point is to achieve some political goal -- that goal was never
defined. The Cylon's goal is simple: the complete destruction of
mankind.

2. The US was on the defensive, strategically, for the entire war and
never conducted a strategically offensive campaign. We never took the
fight to the enemy (N. Vietnam) -- and dropping a couple bombs from the
air doesn't count. The Cylons are actively pursuing the humans, even
running them off of thier home planets.

3. The N. Vietnamese were supported technologically and materially by
China and the USSR, and infiltrating S. Vietnam was easy as falling off
a log. Who's helping the humans?? They don't even know where the Cylons
live.

As for Iraq, US forces go where they want, when they want. It owns
Iraq. Even so the resistence is fighting on its own turf, recieves
material support from Iran and Siria to name two, knows where their
enemy is, how big they are, what they eat, blah, blah, blah.

The humans in BSG have no turf. No allies. No industrial base. No
knowledge of their enemy...nothing.

[Earl Grieda]

Post by KenH
Not to get off track, but in Vietnam the US never lost a battle. It
1. It never had an objective - the most important thing in a war since
the point is to achieve some political goal -- that goal was never
defined. The Cylon's goal is simple: the complete destruction of
mankind.
2. The US was on the defensive, strategically, for the entire war and
never conducted a strategically offensive campaign. We never took the
fight to the enemy (N. Vietnam) -- and dropping a couple bombs from the
air doesn't count. The Cylons are actively pursuing the humans, even
running them off of thier home planets.
3. The N. Vietnamese were supported technologically and materially by
China and the USSR, and infiltrating S. Vietnam was easy as falling off
a log. Who's helping the humans?? They don't even know where the Cylons
live.
As for Iraq, US forces go where they want, when they want. It owns
Iraq. Even so the resistence is fighting on its own turf, recieves
material support from Iran and Siria to name two, knows where their
enemy is, how big they are, what they eat, blah, blah, blah.
The humans in BSG have no turf. No allies. No industrial base. No
knowledge of their enemy...nothing.

How do you define a "battle"? I wasn't in Vietnam, but I seriously doubt if
the U.S. won every fight. In regard to Iraq, the daily reports and deaths
clearly show that the U.S. does not "own Iraq". Iraq appears to be more
like rent. You have a payment every month, and you get nothing permanent in
return. Not to that say that the U.S. couldn't own Iraq, but the U.S. would
never pay that high a price.

[KenH]

Nope. They pretty much did win every major fight. Now there were small
platton and company size fights that they lost, but in the big fights
(Ia Drang, Tet, Easter Offensive) the North or Viet Cong was clobbered.
The fact that they kept coming back speaks to their political will and
single minded objective.

As for Iraq, no, it's not stable. But no one on earth doubts the US
owns it. Too many people confuse the death of one soldier every other
day as loosing. During WWII the thousands would die in one day and no
one batted an eye...win or loose. Different perspective I guess.

But the whole point of my geeky rant was that the Cylon's have ALL the
advantages. It's too lopsided to be "realisitic".

[Russ]

"KenH" <***@earthlink.net> wrote in news:1129235011.669649.196080
@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

<snip>

Post by KenH
But the whole point of my geeky rant was that the Cylon's have ALL the
advantages. It's too lopsided to be "realisitic".

My impression is that is *is* lopsided and the cylons could probably
wipe out the fleet any time they wanted. They're keeping this small
remnant around for a reason - it's part of their "PLAN" (tm).

For some reason, the cylons want the fleet to find earth (and moreover
the cylons themselves don't wan't to get their first). The cylons could
easily have taken the Arrow, gone to Kobol and found the route to earth
well before the colonials.

What it is they are up to we don't know yet.

Russ

[Chris ®]

How do you define a "battle"? I wasn't in
Vietnam, but I seriously doubt if the U.S.
won every fight. In regard to Iraq, the
daily reports and deaths clearly show that
the U.S. does not "own Iraq".

An "insurgency" by definition implies a force occupies and controls the
territory in question.

--
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - Adam Savage

[Russ]

Post by Chris ®

How do you define a "battle"? I wasn't in
Vietnam, but I seriously doubt if the U.S.
won every fight. In regard to Iraq, the
daily reports and deaths clearly show that
the U.S. does not "own Iraq".

An "insurgency" by definition implies a force occupies and controls the
territory in question.

Actually, I tend to view insurgencies as *not* necessarily occupying
territory.

Russ

[Christopher C. Stacy]

Post by Chris ®

How do you define a "battle"? I wasn't in
Vietnam, but I seriously doubt if the U.S.
won every fight. In regard to Iraq, the
daily reports and deaths clearly show that
the U.S. does not "own Iraq".

An "insurgency" by definition implies a force occupies
and controls the territory in question.

Not according to the definitions that you can find
in Webster's, American Heritage, or Princeton Wordnet.

(If anything, by definition it suggests the opposite.)

[Joseph S. Powell, III]

Post by KenH
Humans on the 12 colonies barely kept up tech wise with an enemy they
built. What hope is there that the 13th colony is any better.

That's not quite true - the Colonial military was, in fact, more than a
match for any invading Cylon force - they had built themselves up quite a
bit after the war - that is why the Toasters had to hack their way in via
Baltar's "Back Door" software.

[RT]

Post by Joseph S. Powell, III

Post by KenH
Humans on the 12 colonies barely kept up tech wise with an enemy they
built. What hope is there that the 13th colony is any better.

That's not quite true - the Colonial military was, in fact, more than a
match for any invading Cylon force - they had built themselves up quite a
bit after the war - that is why the Toasters had to hack their way in via
Baltar's "Back Door" software.

I saw it kinda more as not wanting another long, protracted war. Some of their
technology was indeed ahead of the colonials which might have given them
an edge long term.

[MSwanberg]

Just my $0.02...

The jumps are tough. Obviously the range is limited, hence the comment
about the Raider being able to jump back to Caprica but none of the
Colony ships could.

As well, jumping is more an art than a science, apparently. We saw
that it takes about 12 hours to compute a jump from scratch (a plot
point that I poo-poo as ridiculous, but nonetheless, it was presented).
Think about it this way. Say you are going to walk from one side of
your house to the other. But here's the kicker, you have to do it with
your eyes shut. And if you bump into anything, that's akin to jumping
into a star. It would be easier to plot shorter jumps and then
recalculate, wouldn't it?

As for the jumping straight to Earth... well, they have one reference.
It would be like me showing you a picture of, say, the Eiffel Tower,
and then asking you to determine where the picture was taken from. Not
an easy task.

-Mike

[Ryan Case]

Post by MSwanberg
Just my $0.02...
The jumps are tough. Obviously the range is limited, hence the comment
about the Raider being able to jump back to Caprica but none of the
Colony ships could.
As well, jumping is more an art than a science, apparently. We saw
that it takes about 12 hours to compute a jump from scratch

And in 33 how did they manage to jump so often if it takes 12 hours to
compute a jump from scratch?

Post by MSwanberg
(a plot
point that I poo-poo as ridiculous, but nonetheless, it was presented).
Think about it this way. Say you are going to walk from one side of
your house to the other. But here's the kicker, you have to do it with
your eyes shut. And if you bump into anything, that's akin to jumping
into a star. It would be easier to plot shorter jumps and then
recalculate, wouldn't it?

I am not sure that I follow your opinion on this. I thought that the
calculations were more a matter of bending space so that the jump was
more like me folding my house so that I could step from one side to the
other in a singel stride. This is admittedly my assumption though.

Post by MSwanberg
As for the jumping straight to Earth... well, they have one reference.
It would be like me showing you a picture of, say, the Eiffel Tower,
and then asking you to determine where the picture was taken from. Not
an easy task.

I thought that they had a few different points of reference? I thought
that there were star patterns that they recognized. (that is more than
one, although I have to admit that my memory on it is hazy)

Post by MSwanberg
-Mike

Ryan

[RaptorDriver]

Post by MSwanberg
The jumps are tough. Obviously the range is limited, hence the comment
about the Raider being able to jump back to Caprica but none of the
Colony ships could.

I belive that the comment was referring to a Raptor, not a capital ship.

[Ridge]

Post by Arthur Hansen
I have the hardest time understanding this and how it can relate to
Earth Human history. Right now, we can track our "pre" history back
about 10,000 years. And our gene history even further back (ie. homo
sapien developed on Earth.)

Bite your tongue Arthur ... it's clear that BSG and GWB are in this
together, humanity didn't evolve here on Earth, the 13th colony was lost,
and the Cylons found it, that's when God created the humanoid Cylons to
populate Vancouver.

For completely rational proof to a Usenet arguement, I submit the following
.. Leoben Conoy looks a lot like Jason Treborn from The Butterfly Effect
and he's almost an exact match for Rollie Saunders in Whiskey Echo ....

</drinking>

[Chris ®]

Post by Arthur Hansen
I have the hardest time understanding this
and how it can relate to Earth Human
history. Right now, we can track our "pre"
history back about 10,000 years. And our
gene history even further back (ie. homo
sapien developed on Earth.)

There's no proof that the events in Galactica are happening in real
time. It could be far in the past (indicating that the Colonial
survivors founded human civilization on Earth) or far in the future
(indicating that humans came to Kobol from Earth). I tend to agree with
the former. The 49,000+ survivors of the Cylon war ARE the 13th Tribe.

--
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - Adam Savage